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Ukrainian language similar to Polish?


Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #91

Perhaps they are... authentic? :-)

FlaglessPole Activity: 4 / 672
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #92

Well. Western Ukrainians are... special ;)

Just because you prefer to speak Russian and thereby you feel yourself superior to them as it is presented in your remarks makes me think that soviets really did succeed in Russifying Ukraine. I was surprised when you said that in soviet times Ukrainian actually was taught in schools. But now I wonder it was done as to make it appear as something redundant, a mere folklore to be phased out by homo sovieticus Russian. What was it? Behold the sputnik... and here comes the Lada, if you behave and drop that silly village speak boy..? Seems that west Ukrainians had minus 25 years of soviet brainwashing and hence that ‘special’ difference.

Not to mention that they escaped the blessings of Russian empire being part of Austria-Hungary.
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #93

makes me think that soviets really did succeed in Russifying Ukraine

There is something in it. Sometime in late 1990's, a strange guy joined our open-air party, brought in by a friend of mine. The guy speaking terribly bad Polish told me his name and then, in Russian, said he needed to "verify himself". He showed his press ID of Pravda to me. The guy turned out to be a Kiev-based Ukrainian. He could not speak Ukrainian at all. Later, he naturalized in Poland and started appearing on the TV as biotherapist under the name of Count de Saint-Germain. I must not tell you his original name, suffice to say it was like totally corrupted "Saint Germain" + wski ;-)
Wiedzmin_fan Activity: - / 79
Joined: 31 May 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #94

I was surprised when you said that in soviet times Ukrainian actually was taught in schools. But now I wonder it was done as to make it appear as something redundant, a mere folklore to be phased out by homo sovieticus Russian.

To tell you the truth, a lot of young people thought it was a bother (extra classes in school!). You could get out of it ONLY if one of your parents wasn't an ethnic Ukrainian.

I don't think it was done on purpose though. In selo, all subjects (like math, history etc.) were often taught in Ukrainian (because most Russian-speaking teachers didn't want to live in selo). They also had quotas (like affirmative action) for Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians at universities. For example, one of my cousins from selo was admitted into a prestigious university in part because she was taking all entrance exams in Ukrainian instead of Russian. She did it with no prep courses and no tutors (impossible feat for a Russian speaking city-educated kid).
FlaglessPole Activity: 4 / 672
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #95

To tell you the truth, a lot of young people thought it was a bother (extra classes in school!). You could get out of it ONLY if one of your parents wasn't an ethnic Ukrainian.

Interesting... as well as what's gonna happen in Ukraine in years to come. Do you see a chance of nationwide revival of the Ukrainian language?
Wiedzmin_fan Activity: - / 79
Joined: 31 May 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #96

Do you see a chance of nationwide revival of Ukrainian language?

It's definitely possible. There's definitely a push for it (and it's very politicized).

Nowadays, the selo (rural areas) and the cultural elite (writers, actors, historians) are Ukrainian-speaking. But a huge sector in the middle, the city population, the middle-class, the professionals, are all primarily Russian speaking. There's no terminology in Ukrainian for many modern professional fields. It's not easy.

Here's an illustration:
youtube.com/watch?v=k-ecwzb-yO0
edit (explanation, for non Russian/Ukrainian speakers): a TV announcer is criticizing (in Russian) the wording of the Ukrainian text he is about to read. But the final product (the program that the viewers will see) is all in Ukrainian. So it's layered - the Ukrainian is being supported/worked around in Russian. Does that make sense?
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #97

Here's an illustration:
youtube.com/watch?v=k-ecwzb-yO0

Hilarious!
FlaglessPole Activity: 4 / 672
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #98

Here's an illustration

he he that's funny I think I understand why some prefer to speak Russian, this guy made it sound pretty farmer-like :)
Wiedzmin_fan Activity: - / 79
Joined: 31 May 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #99

Hilarious!

Yes, it is, isn't it?
"Znaesh, chyo Alenushka plachet? U neyo brat - kozel, ponimaesh'?" - he has a way with words! ;)

Forgot to add this (a shining example of UkrRussian), too:
youtube.com/watch?v=lpJ44NV6m-E
and
youtube.com/watch?v=2cdg-7akt60
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #100

Funny! Do you mean this guy actually speaks and sings in the language mix? Sometimes I hear him speaking Russian, sometimes I can hear Ukrainian words?
Wiedzmin_fan Activity: - / 79
Joined: 31 May 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #101

the first song is a mix (or rather just really "bad", Russified, Ukrainian), in the second video he switches depending on whom he is addressing (he/she brought in relatives from selo to show off, and his mamo ordered the most expensive item on the menu).

that guy was a major star a few years ago. I think he even represented Ukraine at Eurovision.
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #102

distant cousins who still live "u selo".

And what is this supposed to mean? "u selo"? What language is it? Are you sure you know even basics of Ukrainian? :))))

I was surprised when you said that in soviet times Ukrainian actually was taught in schools.

You are absolutely right, FlaglessPoles. Recently, I listened to a Ukrainian MP who was born in the central Ukraine (Zaporizhya) in 1960s. His parents had real difficulty in finding a Ukrainian school. They had to move in order to enrol their son in a school where he could be taught in Ukrainian. Being born in Lviv, which is a heart of Ukrainian re-birth, we had compulsory Russian language and Russian literature classes since grade 3 (10 years kids) as separate subjects from Foreign language or literature. So, you might imagine the situation further east where the Russians over centuries exterminated many aspects of our culture. But it is alive and will be gradually restored. The way that Wiedzmin contorts the facts, claiming he is an ethnic Ukrainian who as you noticed calls me "zapadieniec" (derogatory for a Ukrainian form the western region) and laughs at "his" ethnic language, one might easily figure out who it is.

For example, one of my cousins from selo was admitted into a prestigious university in part because she was taking all entrance exams in Ukrainian instead of Russian.

Not true. This was and still is done to give a chance to kids from villages where it is tougher to study because of the work and the lack of teachers. It has nothing to do with Ukrainian language.

To me, it's one language with (slightly) different sets of vocabulary

Oh yeh? So, why don't you speak Ukrainian? You claim you had classes, relatives etc. and still not able to learn this "slight difference"? Poor kid ;)
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #103

Thank you, Nathan. I feel reassured my musical ear is not that bad ;-)
Woon  
14 Jun 2011  #104

Here are a few examples of more-or-less different words in Polish-Russian-Ukrainian, respectively (in Polish transcription, without specific Polish letters - in case smb would like to copy them; accented vowels are capitalized; apostrophe means softening-palatalisation):

Pol - Rus - Ukr (I write how it WRITES, NOT HOW IT READS)

poczta - pOczta - pOszta
cierzarna - bieriEmiennaja - vahItna
bezplatny - biesplAtnyj - bezkosztOvnyj
jedzenie - jedA - jIrza
ormianin - armianIn - virmenYn
bezczynnoszcz - biezdiEjstvije - bezdijAl'nis't'
wzdlurz - wdol' - wzdowrz
paz'dziernik - oktiAbr' - rzOvten'
lapuwka - wziAtka - chabAr
rurza - rOza - trojAnda
dzien'kuje - spasIbo - diAkuju, spasYbi

Simpler stuff:

piotr - piotr - petrO
jerz - jorz - jirzAk
jerzeli, jes'li - jEsli, jErzeli - jakszczO
i - i, da - i, j, ta
z, ze - iz, izo - z, zi, zo, iz
albo, lub, czy - ili, libo - czy, abO
czyrz(by) - nieurzEli, nieUrzto - nevrzE
jest - jes't' - je
jeszcze - jeszczO - szcze
lias - lies - lis
lios - sud'bA - dOlia
nie (as "not") - niet - ni
nie (as "no") - nie - ne

After all, Ukrainian tongue has also strong and special Old Slavic influence: notice the word "jakszczO" - it's most likely come from ther Old Slavic word "Aszcze"...

It is said, Russian and Ukrainian are 60-70 percents identical. Ukrainian and Polish are 80% identical that doesn't mean 80% the same, of course! Ukrainian and Belarusian (classic, non-trasyanka form?) are the most, 90% identical.

This is it. Though I can understand patriotic nationalistic feelings of the Poles... Yet believe me guys - I got the same patriotic nationalistic feelings for my country and my people.
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #105

If you only could write in Polish, all of us would benefit even more. Your Polish is terribly bad... I understand Cyrillic is your first alphabet?
Zman  
14 Jun 2011  #106

lias - lies - lis
lios - sud'bA - dOlia

No, it is LAS and LOS, in polish. And you totally confuse "rz" and "ż". I suggest you stay away from this discussion until you learn the difference.

And anyhow, what exactly were you trying to prove? Ukrainian is a separate language from both russian and polish. I hope it eventually wins over russian in Ukraine as it is the state language there.
Arkanas  
14 Jun 2011  #107

Bo Ukrainiab is similar to russian.
Woon  
14 Jun 2011  #108

I've written in the parentheses: "without specific Polish letters - in case smb would like to copy them" !

I know it is las and los - but I tried to express them in a way close to their pronunciation. I didn't use vowel reduction in Russian (akanye, etc.) though - BUT IN CASE SOMEONE WOULD LIKE TO COPY THOSE EXAMPLES TO SOMEWHERE ELSE WHERE THERE ARE NO SPECIFIC POLISH LETTERS...

Yeah, certainly I'm from Ukraine, so Cyrillic is my alphabet. But I got Rus-Pol/Pol-Rus dictionary and certainly know how it looks and how it reads...

So, it's not terrible Polish, it's a user-friendly writing you know... Not all of the places on the Net are Polish tongue-friendly then.
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #109

I feel reassured my musical ear is not that bad ;-)

I am glad :)

If you only could write in Polish, all of us would benefit even more. Your Polish is terribly bad... I understand Cyrillic is your first alphabet?

No, it is LAS and LOS, in polish. And you totally confuse "rz" and "ż".

You can't be serious. Woon wrote the words as they sound in Polish transliteration, not how they are written. And did a great job. What difference is there in a sound depicted by "rz" or "ż"? None, as far as I know. If I see "las" and don't speak Polish I would read it hard "L". But with the way Woon presented it, you have the softening which is how you pronounce it, right?

Here are a few examples

Thanks, Woon. Great examples. And I am happy to see another co-patriot on PF :)
P.S. Pardon, you already said it :)
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #110

Woon, I strongly recommend you use translate.google (at least that). Please understand: A Pole reading "wzdlurz" (wzdłuż) or "rurza" (róża) or "lapuwka" (łapówka) is in mood to kill... Please take more care, otherwise you harm for example people trying to learn Polish.

Otherwise, your examples are very interesting.

Nathan, as a non-Pole, you cannot understand it. I am a peaceful person, and as you know I'm fond of Ukraine. However... Tell me: can you see the difference between these three words:

luźny (loose)
£użny (name)
łóżko (bed)?

You know, I do not think that my Grandma who was raised in Horodenka/Gorodenka and taught Polish for 50 years -- also in today's Poland -- would tolerate "rurza" from ANYBODY.
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #111

Please take more care, otherwise you harm for example people trying to learn Polish.

If this, and I mean PRONOUNCIATION, harms people, they are irreparably harmed already.

is in mood to kill

That's a good choice if pronounciation harms, but only directed towards oneself :)

However... Tell me: can you see the difference between these three words:
luźny (loose)
£użny (name)
łóżko (bed)?

You know, I do not think that my Grandma who was raised in Horodenka/Gorodenka and taught Polish for 50 years -- also in today's Poland -- would tolerate "rurza" from ANYBODY.

I see the difference absolutely and know these words.
Regarding your granny, she taught language to the Polish and not to any other ethnicity out there, To know how the words are spoken one needs pronounciation-transliteration handy. I wouldn't ever learn a language if I knew nothing of its sound.

"rurza" tells you how the word sounds, since it is generally accepted to read "u" like "u" which sound like wolf-howling. It makes it easy.
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #112

Nathan, please STOP before I explode, will you? ;-)

You bet my Granny taught Ukrainians too?

My Mother, born in the same Horodenka/Gorodenka was able to pronounce "hak" and "chleb" the way you could hear the difference between her "h"'s and "ch"'s. This is because you people say "gak" and 'chlieb". Polish requires you write proper Polish because Poles cannot understand Polish written phonetically, and Polish students would not understand a bit from Woon's transliteration.

3 tee mye f tey fili rosumyesh, nejtn? <-- Translate from Polish to English, Nathan. I wrote phonetically some Polish sentence.
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #113

Do you understand me right now, Nathan? :) But I would transliterate for English this way: Chy ty mie v tey khvilie rozumjesh, neiten?

My Mother, born in the same Horodenka/Gorodenka was able to pronounce "hak" and "chleb" the way you could hear the difference between her "h"'s and "ch"'s. This is because you people say "gak" and 'chlieb".

No, we don't. We say: "hak" and "chlib", which I bet the Polish would have no problem to pronounce (maybe, with accent, but who doesn't have one?)
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #114

OK, Nat. I have to tell this to you again and for the last time. If I were next to you and you wrote rurza on purpose, first I would beat you up until you're unconcious, then I would hang you on the said rurze and obsypał różami.

I never defend my compatriots if they are lazy ignorants.

Modern Poles pronounce "h" and "ch" identically and cannot pronounce the hard "h". In Galicia, the distinction was strong due to Ukrainian influence.
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #115

OK, Nat. I have to tell this to you again and for the last time. If I were next to you and you wrote rurza on purpose, first I would beat you up until you're unconcious, then I would hang you on the said rurze and obsypał różami.

Wow, quite romantic, especially the last part ;) If this the tendency in Poland to beat people unconcious for that, my next trip to Poland would be with a white! T-shirt and a red! word "RURZA" accross the chest and back. I like some action :)

*Under this bed of roses rests Nathan who liked to write Polish words unconventionally* ;)

Modern Poles pronounce "h" and "ch" identically and cannot pronounce the hard "h".

Yes, that's true. I have noticed that.
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #116

Nathan, now you see how easy it is to make an enemy of Ukraine from a friend of Ukraine. Don't make me think Sokrates might have been right... I respect your country, culture and language so you respect mine. Deal?

P.S. I made several typos and had to correct them. This shows how irritated I am.
Wiedzmin_fan Activity: - / 79
Joined: 31 May 2010 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #117

"u selo"? What language is it?

Yes, Nathan, I was making fun of their pronunciation. They were making fun of mine, so I am entitled to poke back at them a little. I could never make the "v" sound like "u". It was always coming out like "fff seli" when I tried to say it. I make no secret that am Russian speaking ;)

I listened to a Ukrainian MP who was born in the central Ukraine (Zaporizhya) in 1960s. His parents had real difficulty in finding a Ukrainian school. They had to move in order to enrol their son in a school where he could be taught in Ukrainian.

Ukrainian language and literature were required subjects - at least, on my memory (late 70s, and 80s). As a matter of fact, half of my family lives in Zaporizhya, so I know it for sure. I have a cousin whose father was ethnic Russian, and she was bragging about being able to wiggle out of Ukrainians lessons altogether (while the rest of the kids coudn't) - but she had to commute to the all-Russian school as a result. I call shenanigans, unless you mean all-ukrainian school, like my other cousin attended - then you had to live in "selo".[/quote]

Being born in Lviv, which is a heart of Ukrainian re-birth, we had compulsory Russian language and Russian literature classes since grade 3 (10 years kids) as separate subjects from Foreign language or literature.

And what would be the problem with that? Poor you, had to learn Russian in the Soviet Union and another foreign language on top of that, just like everybody else. Also, you actually lived in Ukraine, studied Russian and you *still* couldn't recognize a Russian accent by ear in that video? What's going on? ;)

why don't you speak Ukrainian?

Why would I speak it? I think I explained it pretty clearly. I am perfectly content to speak Russian, while others speak Ukrainian back. Works great for me. This way neither of us has a ridiculous accent (which you couldn't hear, ha-ha! I'll poke fun at you for that forever ;) .

I suppose if my family haven't moved overseas some 20 years ago, I may have made more of an effort to "polish" (haha, get it?) my Ukrainian.

I recommend you move to Ukraine, too - this way you'll learn to recognize "Russian" Ukrainians by their accents ;)
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #118

Nathan, now you see how easy it is to make an enemy of Ukraine from a friend of Ukraine. Don't make me think Sokrates might have been right... I respect your country, culture and language so you respect mine. Deal?

I have the same respect to Polish culture. You just seem not to understand that it is easier to learn proper spelling and speaking through first knowing how it sounds. It doesn't mean that a student will be writing "rurza" in the end. Absolutely not.

This shows how irritated I am.

Chill out, Antek. This is just a dialogue :)
In regards to a friendship: friendship is something you go through no matter how difficult it is. If one gives it up for a transliteration technique or similar nuisance then it wasn't a friendship in the first place.
Antek_Stalich Activity: 5 / 997
Joined: 6 May 2011 ♂
 
14 Jun 2011  #119

To become real friends, it requires some time to make friends, and only after the friendship has developed, you can speak with the friend even of the most painful matters.

Yes, I am aware you were joking most of the time, yet, in the best interest of Ukraine, tell your friend Woon to start using translate.google (at least) and do not excuse his laziness and ignorance.
Zman  
14 Jun 2011  #120

(I write how it WRITES, NOT HOW IT READS)

Well, in case you missed that part of Woon's contribution to the thread.....

rurza certainly is written "róża", so you contradicted yourself. Had you used international transliteration or simplified english/american equivalent I wouldn't have raised hell. But I agree with AS, the look of those examples was both misleading and simply awful.

BTW there is nothing "soft" in how we pronounce Las or Los. The letter "L" definitely sounds hard in those words.




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Ukrainian language similar to Polish?
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