The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered [6]  |  Archives [1] 
 
Witamy, Guest  |  Members
Home / Language34

Difficult verb pairs in the Polish Language; iść-chodzić, jechać-jeździć


linhbup Activity: 1 / 0
Joined: 22 Apr 2016 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #1

Please explain me the difference of these pairs: iść- chodzić, jechać- jeżdzić and spotykać- spotykać się. Thanks :)

Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #2

First of all, Polish verbs are divided as you are doubtless aware, into what are known as, "aspects" aka "points of view" from the vantage point of the speaker! These aspects, unlike tenses in other languages, indicate solely the DURATION vs. the TIME FRAME within which a given action is being or has been completed. They are divided variously into the categories "determinate", and "frequentative", known simply as "perfective" verbs because of their finite nature.

Into the latter group belong "iść" [determinate], "jechać" [frequentative], and "spotkać się", this as contrasted with
"chodzić" [iterative or REPEAT action!!!], "jeżdzić", and "spotYkać się", each of which is an "IMperfective" verb owing to their INFINITE nature!

A few examples should suffice: PERFECTIVE

Idę teraz do kościoła. = I'm going to church. [Right at this moment!]

Jutro jadę z moimi rodzicami do Berlina. = Tomorrow I'm driving with my parents to Berlin.

No, spotkamy się przed głównym wejściem kina, dobra? = Well, let's all meet in front of the main entrance to the movie theater.

Now, for the IMPERFECTIVE:

Od kilka lat Krysia chodzi do szkoły podstawowej. = Chrissy's been [continuously] attending primary school for several years.

Codziennie jeżdzę od Sopota do Gdańsku. = I drive every day from Sopot to Gdańsk.

Na Paradze Pułaskiego spotykamy się na rogu 46ej ulicy i Piątej Aleje. = We [always!!] meet for the Pulaski Parade at the corner of o 46th Street and Fifth Avenue.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #3

@Lyzko

Sorry, Lysko, but you really made a dog's breakfast of that. Frequentative is something different altogether, and the determinate/indeterminate pairs are both imperfective.

To the OP, this is actually way too complicated to explain on a forum like this. It is well worth spending 35 bucks on Oscar Swan's Grammar of Contemporary Polish.

He is the only one I've ever seen that does a good job of explaining the complexity of the Polish verb system, especially aspect, with which he does a stellar job.

It used to be available for free on his website, but it is not longer active. The "Nutshell" version now available for free on the internet is not good enough, and won't help you with these questions. Buy the full version on Amazon:

amazon.com/Grammar-Contemporary-Polish-Oscar-Swan/dp/0893572969/ref=la_B001JSDRRK_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1479931887&sr=1-5

It will save you hundreds of hours.

All other Polish grammar books in English that I have seen are vastly inferior, so don't waste your money on them.
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 814
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
23 Nov 2016  #4

PERFECTIVE

Idę

jadę

spotkamy się

Wrong. They are all Imperfective.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #5

As far as Poles (in Polish) have explained matters, "chodzić" is considered an "iterative" verb, that is, "niedokonany" because it shows a regular activity such as "chodzić do szkoły" (I'll omit "chadzać" from this discussion, if only not to confuse things), or, "going to school"!

My first-year Polish instructor, thankfully a bilingual German-Polish speaker with a doctorate in Polonistik from Poznań, compared the former with "iść", thus contrasting the above with "iść do szkoły", "going" in the sense of "walking" to school, though not (necessrily) attending:-)) This verb he termed "dokonany" and he did so in both German AND later on, in Polish so as I could hoepfully internalize the structure in a native-speaker context.

He didn't trust his English in this instance, frankly, neither did I.

While I may have misunderstood his explanations, he provided at the time nearly identical examples to what I wrote and illustrated how they were to be used correctly.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #6

This verb he termed "dokonany" and he did so in both German AND later on, in Polish

No, he didn't. You misheard or misunderstood, or your memory is mistaken. It is certainly niedokonany. An action in progress cannot be dokonany, for obvious reasons.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #7

I shall ask then for a comparison between the verbs "iść" vs. "pójść" (not one of the verbs asked about). The way I learned it, so-called perfective/dokonany verbs are nearly identical with FUTURE constructions, thus, I might say/write either "Pójdę jutro do sklepu." as easily as "Będę jutro iść do sklepu." Probably, I wouldn't use "Chodzę...", because I'm not going to the store EVERY SINGLE day, unless perhaps I'm delivering to the store and go there on a daily/weekly basis:-)
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #8

The "będę" forms of the future are niedokonany. Dokonany mean a successfully completed one-time action, and thus can only refer to past or future actions. Past or future actions can be dokonany or niedokonany. Present actions can only be niedokonany.

Frequentative: chadzać

Imperfective (niedokonany): chodzić/iść (determinate)

Perfective (dokonany): pójść

The frequentative has largely fallen out of use and is now usually expressed using the imperfective. It is used now only with a handful of verbs.

As for the rest of your post, it's fundamentally wrong. See the Swan grammar I mentioned above for a good explanation.
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 814
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
23 Nov 2016  #9

so-called perfective/dokonany verbs are nearly identical with FUTURE constructions,

Future perfective tense is identical to present tense, so a better comparison for the iść/pójść ( Imperfective/Perfective forms ), would surely be for example:

Idę do sklepu and pójdę do sklepu
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #10

To Dominik and Chemnikiem, my sincere thanks!
:-)

Still puzzling over a bit where precisely I veered off. Oh, well, if Swan doesn't do it, guess I must be slowLOL
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #11

Idę do sklepu and pójdę do sklepu

The first means "I am in the process of going to the store" (uncompleted action). Niedokonany.

The second means "I will successfully finish going to the store at a particular point in time in the future". (One-time action successfully completed with a concrete result or accomplishment at a unique point of time). Dokonany.

"Będę iść/będę szedł do sklepu" means "I will be in the process of going to the store" (uncompleted action). Niedokonany.

If it is not a one-time action successfully completed with a concrete result or accomplishment at a unique point of time, either in the past or the future, then it cannot be dokonany. Actions occurring at the present time are never dokonany.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #12

In a way, although Swan doesn't really even allude to it, what you're describing is almost similar to progressive vs. simple tenses, cf. "I'm going to the store.." vs. "I go to the store [...every Friday afternoon],vs. "I will go to the store tomorrow.." etc..

Nonetheless irritated with myself for glitching on this basic stuff. Usually, I have no problems speaking to Poles and using the above, although, as you can plainly see, EXPLAINING the stuff correctly, doesn't always happen:-)
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 814
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
23 Nov 2016  #13

The first means "I am in the process of going to the store"

Niedokonany.

The second means "I will successfully finish going to the store at a particular point in time in the future"

Dokonany.

Yes I know, my examples were meant to demonstrate this difference as Lyzko asked for a comparison between Iść/Pójść. The first is occurring now, the second in the future. I didn't think what Lyzko said demonstrated this.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #14

@Lyzko

Yes. Probably the only overlap with the English tense system is with those few verbs of motion that have determinate/indeterminate pairs. Determinate verbs correspond to progressive (continuous) tenses in English, and indeterminate verbs to simple tenses, in past, present and future.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #15

Once again (:)), as closely as I can tell, "chodzić" represents a repeated action. "iterative" in that it is "reITERATed" numerous times, or not?

As it can't be my sentences, it has to be my explanation with which you and Dominic are finding fault.

This then clinches things for me! It confirms what I (almost) thought I knew.
lol
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 814
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
23 Nov 2016  #16

it has to be my explanation with which you and Dominic are finding fault.

It's not an easy to concept to explain, but for sure Lyzko, your explanations are often difficult to comprehend! If you look at what you wrote in post number 2 in reply to the OP, he will probably run a mile at your explanation. If he is a beginner, your answer is too complex, but as always you try to help us all with our varying levels of Polish language ;)
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #17

You're much too kind, ma'am:-)

Yes, they were apparently much too complex.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #18

@Lyzko

as closely as I can tell, "chodzić" represents a repeated action. "iterative" in that it is "reITERATed" numerous times, or not?

Not exactly. It is more likely to be habitual or generic that iterative. Iterative, strictly speaking, means something that is repeated again and again. Indeterminate verbs can be iterative, but not necessarily. Habitual and iterative are similar in concept, but not the same. If you find it totally natural to use the words "again and again" in the sentence, it is iterative. If you think it sounds odd or wouldn't naturally do it, it is probably habitual.

Swan explains this very well.
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,695
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #19

Please explain me the difference of these pairs: iść- chodzić, jechać- jeżdzić and spotykać- spotykać się. Thanks

to walk - walking; to drive - driving, meet - meeting with/ dating.
:)
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #20

If he is a beginner, your answer is too complex

they were apparently much too complex.

The OP's questions require a rather complex answer, which is why I referred him to Swan. Any simplified answer will fall short of the mark. If he is a beginner, he has bigger fish to fry for the time being, and is wasting his time trying to understand something that is inappropriate for his level. I assumed, though, that he is not a beginner.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #21

The question is so basic to Polish grammar, that the learner must at best be no more than perhaps an advanced beginner:-)

@Dominic,

a nice breakdown on your part!
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
23 Nov 2016  #22

A not so small flaw, but the poster writes "jeździć" which is correct, then switches to "jeżdzić", a trap into which yours truly also fell, shame on meLOL
peter_olsztyn Activity: 5 / 993
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 ♂
 
24 Nov 2016  #23

Please explain me the difference of these pairs: iść- chodzić

Take it this way the first is an action. The second is a habit
Iść do sklepu vs Chodzić do kościoła.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
25 Nov 2016  #24

Highly simplified, but sort of gets the larger idea across:-)
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
25 Nov 2016  #25

Take it this way the first is an action. The second is a habit

Highly simplified, but sort of gets the larger idea across:-)

A bit too simplified. The first one is a single one-time action currently in progress and directed toward a goal that will end at a unique point of time in the future. When it's finished, the past action would be expressed using the perfective (if successful).

The second is anything else taking place at or around the present time that doesn't fit the above rule, whether it is a habit or a single one-time occurrence. When it's finished, the past action would be expressed using the imperfective.

If you are walking to the store, then use the first.

If you are just walking around with no apparent goal or terminus, then use the second, even though you would use progressive/continuous in English.
sadzonka44  
25 Nov 2016  #26

Idę do pubu na piwo. I'm going to the pub for a beer. (I'm just about to go or am on my way.)

Chodzę do pubu na piwo. I go to the pub for a beer. (I go regularly to the pub. Habit/routine)
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
25 Nov 2016  #27

Non-Slavs find exactly THIS distinction perplexing, as we tend to think differently regarding action and what perhaps SEEMS perfective to a foreigner is imperfective to a Polish native speaker:-)

Herein lies the difficulty, I think. It's almost like explaining German case and motion vs. rest to an Anglo-Saxon. What seems normal, logical, and natural in one language, is opposite in the other!
Ziemowit Activity: 7 / 2,322
Joined: 8 May 2009 ♂
 
26 Nov 2016  #28

The second is anything else taking place at or around the present time that doesn't fit the above rule, whether it is a habit or a single one-time occurrence.

This seems to be an exact explanation. A couple of examples which may perhaps make it more clear:

1.Chodzę w tych butach już dwa miesiące i nadal nie czuję się w nich wygodnie.
2. Kilkakrotne o różnych porach dnia chodził pod szkołę w nadziei, że ją spotka.

Both are neither a habit/routine nor a single one-time occurence.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,711
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
26 Nov 2016  #29

Chodzę do kościoła. = I go to church [regularly]. vs. Idę do kościoła. = I'm going to church [at this moment].

This the general idea? The former would seem to me to be imperfective, the latter perfective.
Maybe I somehow forgot the distinction between these terms in the course of many years:-)
DominicB Activity: - / 1,506
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
26 Nov 2016  #30

the latter perfective.

No. They are both imperfective. Actions in progress cannot be perfective. I explained this above.




Home / Language /
Difficult verb pairs in the Polish Language; iść-chodzić, jechać-jeździć
Bold Italic [quote]
Click this icon to move up back to the quoted message. Polish letters:
 
To post as guest, enter a temporary and unique username or login and post as a member.