just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian

Yes, because Polish villagers had no forces, only lives. And how many Germans and Soviets UPA eliminated comparing to the number of defenseless Polish peasants killed. I'm sure that the latter number was greater.


Yes, you did. Very effectively. You have your western regions almost totally wiped out of Poles. But we are talking about the methods. It cost your nation very much but you have your frontiers wider - almost 100% of your prewar nationalist plans. But it cost Poles living there few times more.


I think you should also try to look at your Cossack hero Chmelnickij (artful and outstanding but ruthless political player in his historical context) from the other perspective. His rebellion killed probably more Ruthenians than Polish forces did in response.

But - in any case - Poles are trying to choose your heros. There were many valuable figures which probably could qualify. Some even of Polish descent like Antonowycz, Hruszewśkij or even £ypynśkij and Szeptyckij. But it is, of course you choice. Poles know it, so don't try to say they don't. Poles are just angry when you build monuments for and make hero of guys who should be first denazified before putting them in school books.

;) Try ;)

Thanks a lot, Nathan. It's your homework.

not addressed to me, but I will reply with quoting an article from Polityka ( a Polish weekly) written by Daniel Passent:
passent.blog.polityka.pl/?p=672

where he states that even though Poland feels like a representation of a Western civilization towards Eastern countries, she still has a long way to go in order to catch up implementing those values herself. The example given by the author is: Alicja Tysiac (just an eample among many others discussed in the article- who was shunned for her choice of abortion, is only one of the cases of the violation of human rights in Poland.

And further he states:
The border on Oder and Nysa used to be a country border. Now is it becoming a border of values systems, which gradually cross over into our country and is it hard to see in what way ( and why) that should be prevented.

[b][b]I think that the author has a good point when pointing that before one points fingers at anybody else, one needs to be an example of those Western values first.

s[/b][/b]so comments like:
But - in any case - Poles are trying to choose your heros. is a good illustration of what I was trying to convey in my reply.

I don't think Poles are trying to choose their heroes. I think Poles are opposing to the particular item, like Steinbach woman. Bandera is a hero for Ukrainian Nazis, and Ukrainian Nazis want to have a place in Ukrainian Politics, too. Steinbach is an important figure for Germans in a TRIFLE similar context. She is leading an organization of Germans loaded on trains and driven to Post War Germany, which is OK, but the dubious part is that her Father was not a citizen in the house she wants back - he was stationed there, after Poles were camped.

See the link here: a Nazi soldier's daughter wants her stationed house restored. Nazi Ukrainians want their hero status restored. That is a bit much...

One more thing that our foreign forumers need to be told, because they are by now likely to be drooling at the picture of Poles as perpetrators: when Germans were driven our of Poland, they were not hacked to pieces but loaded on trains with a one way ticket. Not a fate that Poles got from German or Ukrainian Nazis...

That was not to you, Nathan, but the Westerners who by default think that all is fluent and ev eryone is probably equally quitly.

Daniel Passent was a prominent communist journalist. He continues to be red and describes all from left wing perspective. His opinions aren't representative.

However he's your homey - as a Jewish survivor from Stanisławów - now Ukrainian Ivano-Frankiwsk.

show me where his comment was communist? I actually predicted your reaction to it to be honest.


Show me where his perspective on what he was commenting had an air of left - winginess.


I don't see how your comment is relevant to the topic. Please explain. I think that he made some excellent points. If you want to choose heroes of Ukraine then how come you find Passent annoying? He pointed out that Poland feels as a representation of the Western values, therefore assumes an superior stand in relationship to Ukraine ( I am not making this up, I have read many posts like that on PF), while she has a long way to go in order to claim to be a bastion of the said values:)

I used his article because he seems to have a grasp of what is partially happening in this thread.


I have no idea how you came to such a conclusion. Staibnach is Stainbach and she is a revisionist. Some posters on this forum are revisionist when it comes to Ukraine because they want part of it back. I don't use that card but rather try to stick to the topic.

I haven't written his comment was communist. I've written he WAS a prominent communist journalist. So, in fact, I have no willingness to read him today. I can recall some of his deceitful comments from 80s. I have enough of him. I don't read him - the biggest revenge I want (and can) execute upon him.

If you actually predicted your reaction, so what is your post for? To expose my mental weakness? ;-)

My remark about Passent's cradle in Stanisławów was just a digression - in case you didn't know. Maybe you can consider, if he has some motives or sensitivities in his journalism common with Ukrainian journalists or opinion makers.

Then you did not read his comment then. I understand.


I posted it because I partly agree with his points.


No, I don't know you well enough :).


you might be onto something but if Jews were badly treated in Ukraine, then your logic does not make sense;)

aphrodisiac


I even worded it above. It's a forum, so let's rant. I don't believe for a second that any of this bone rattling is important now for reasons other that historical. At the moment we have lost Lwów, and it is not going to be ours - like Stettin is lost to the Germans (but not Wrocław or Gdańsk). Moving the borders back would be extremely costly, in money or maybe even in blood. So the free border movement is a good thing about the EU (while it being a communist one party scam is bad). I may BUY back the house where my grans were born (not receive back like Germans or Jews. I will BUY)

But there is one reason for which it's important to stick to the facts: facts are important in themselves, otherwise we end up with a Ministry of truth.

So: don't exaggerate by saying that Poles were oppressors which is proven by slaying Poles. German Nazis proved that Poles were slaves by slaying Poles. We were and are neither of those things.

Now - did I try to pretend that Poland did not take down Churches, interfere with religion, ignore Ukrainian language? NOT. I said that was a wrong and stupid thing to do, though the leaders of the time thought it a good stratagem in the Russian conflict. But - to hack families to pieces??? UPA were as barking mad as Dirlewanger.

What I told you in November: at the time you were gaining a national Conscience, where you thought about yourselves as Ukrainians, instead as 'from here'. So did majority of Poles. This was a defining experience for a lot of people. I understand a lot of what happened, and that we stood in your way to your own identity. You have been aggressive. (I'm assuming you're Ukrainian from previous comments). And that's fine, this is not a peaceful land, there had been wars before. But to hack families to pieces???

There is also the thing of Soviet regime, you were on the red side, and some red officials in Poland post war were Ukrainian criminals, as well as Jewish criminals. We were ruled by murderers and there was not much to be done about it since Jarulzelski himself hunted AK guys in the forests...

So, the state of today - the borders are coming down, trips are going abroad to see Ukraine, it's pretty. I may buy property there. I hope you welcome my money.

point taken. It would NOT be practical to say the least.


You lost me here.


and where in my post did I say it? Poles oppressed Ukrainians - true. I repeat. Ukrainians were oppressed by Poles. Just to clarify in case you will run into denial again.


I never said such a thing, have I? Never mind what has driven the Poles to do that. I am not getting into that.


I am not sure what you are referring to? Are you referring the the Orange revolution by any chance? If that is the case then I was in Poland at that time and I saw the immense support of Poles. However, I would like to to inform that for an average Ukrainian, me included, I have never though of myself : I am from there, so I find your comment tad patronizing to be honest.


No you did not, don't assume that much. When Poles were in Ukraine, they did, but they are not longer there, so there is no problem.


Again, please stop being patronizing.


I was not there during those time, so I think that this comment is irrelevant, however I understand what you are trying to say.


well, it is nice to see that you liked it.


Go ahead, I have nothing against it. If the government of Ukraine allows other nationalities to purchase property, it is up to them. I have no saying it this to be honest.

From what I understand, Ukraine is a separate country now and is interested in good trading, economic and political relationship with Poland, but this is it. It should be good enough for both parties, me thinks.

Uff, thanks for having a mature discussion.

The 'from here' is not about patronizing someone, this is what people anywhere in the world call themselves before the modernist idea of nationality is popularized. Before nationalities there were villages, communities, Kings to identify oneself with. That's all I was saying.

In Poland it was this way until the war, there were villages where people didn't say 'we're Polish', they would say, 'we're local'. 'tutejsi'.

I really am not being patronizing, I am talking about the victims and the grief, not about being 'better'. Not sure why another nation seems to think we are cold, patronizing, aloof and other things. It's really simple - we are both proud and shy, not: feeling better, simply feeling not at home. That really is all.

Thanks for being so welcoming.

it is hard, isn't it?


I think it still prevails to a large degree. Unless somebody is a globetrotter. Most people derive their identity, including national identity from the place of their origin.

I watched a documentary about Hungarian Jews, who finally went to visit their home town after many years of living in another country and one of them said: this is home, this feels like home, so maybe this is what you were trying to convey here?


point taken. Thank you.

Quite an interference and ignoring... You learnt nothing.


So they just thought that by destroying 190 Ukrainian churches and converting 150 into Roman Catholic was a good stratagem. Can you exactly point out the thought-process behind this statement with trying to erase everything Ukrainian in the background?


You are confused, Krysia. How by slaying someone you can prove he/she is a slave? ;) It may prove the other way around, actually.


Who was gaining National Conscience in November? Ukrainians were defending their right to have FAIR ELECTIONS, which were rigged in 2004 big time. Does defense of rights immediately mean National Conscience? Did French women, which basically started the French Revolution in 1789, want to make a national conscience check? Or, maybe, they had nothing to feed their kids with that made them go to Paris?! They knew who they are, even if commonality was based on language, same place of residence and just seeing each other often on a neighboring church bench. It wasn't of any importance to them let the world know who they are. They were wronged by the king. The same pertains to many revolutions that occur nowadays. If Ukrainians didn't have a national identity, there won't be so much blood and bones in Ukrainian land.


It was a sign that we don't sleep :)


Well, it definitely is not a land where you can simply come and put your ars* on somebody's head without finding your ars* ripped apart. For other people, who want to live in peace and mutual respect, Ukraine is a welcoming country.


Would you, please, give me the names of Ukrainian criminals as officials in after-war Poland? Thank you.


Yes, money ;)

Nathan, you blood thirsty Ukrainian... You didn't even read the text. I meant the WAR was a defining experience, not Ukrainian barbaric butchery. You're flattering yourself.

What you don't seem to put in this picture at all, is that we don't think in the nationalistic category all that much. I know that you and Germans do, but a Pole is someone who speaks Polish - that includes me. My Gran's surname was Hajdul - I don;t think it's all that Polish, but I am welcome to be one. (BTW - so are you. If you live in a part of Ukraine that was once Poland, you claim our citizenship through ancestry).

We are ruled by an idea, a dream. Poland is always there, even if she's not physically there - understand? Poland is a borderland country, mixed origins, mixed traditions, plus Latin Republican and Greek influence. We love it this way.

To us, the national processes meant that all the various local tribes, Mazovians, Lemkos, Germans even, could stay in the countryside or sign up for the Common Thing, Res Publica.

What you have done in Ukraine was to sign out of the Common Thing for a separate national interest. It's like separating a part of Canada or US on the basis that a majority of, say, Puerto-Ricans live there.

Or like separating Kosovo from Serbia on the basis that Albanians live there, incidentally.

Nation should not matter, citizenship matters for us. Nations always lead to wars, or at least to football, which stinks.

So when you are saying that Ukrainians were suffering for the Kingdom to rise back from the ashes - you should have suffered more. You should have made sacrifices like the children in Warsaw Uprising. You would have now belonged to what will be made beautiful again. But you sided with the Devil, and the Devil, Stalin, had starved you to death.

I pity you.

You mean Ukrainians should accept the destruction of their churches and their ban from high education to achieve a ...dream?On the contrary I find polish policy towards Ukrainians after WW2 rather myopic and in direct relation to western ukrainian support to SS like Bandera.Germans made later the same mistake and put in Ukraine an awful Gauleiter who claimed that Ukrainians are n1ggers and have to be treated as such.The result was that most people in Ukraine had to join the communist party for their mere survival.

lol, I was really trying hard to take what you write seriously, but I think that you cannot be. German tribes lol.


you are loosing me again.


make up your mind, you are confused. It is irrelevant what matters to you really.


oh, so now you are changing the tune. Interesting.

You know what? Go back to writing you silly blog, at least there will be less people exposed to the rubbish you keep producing. Unbelievable stuff indeed.

I really, really tried to see some light in your posts but it appears that my effort was futile.

Good luck with buying the house in the Ukraine, I would reconsider if I were you lol

Please, don't bother with replying, I rather you spent your time on something else.

If Stalin was the Devil I wonder what was Hitler.The uber-Satan?

No, I read everything you said. And you didn't mean the WAR, my dear:


you meant the Orange revolution.


Thanks for an offer, but I am not a bit interested.


It's more like separating you and ignorance. We just enjoy living in our own country, which Ukrainians fought for centuries. Anytime, you are willing to have your churches burnt, education suppressed, people thrown into jails and get our language forcefully shoved into your throats and give up your statehood, let me know: we will form One Thing or wtf ever you call it.


Krysia, just take a break. You are losing it ;)Trust me, I belong to MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more beautiful thing that you will ever imagine with your chauvinistic, narrow-minded attitude.


Vice versa.

How many centuries, Nathan?
Your national Ukrainian identity started in last decade of XVIII century and wasn't even completed as WW2 ended. With your anachronistic concepts of eternal Ukraine you never understand the past: Ukrainian past, Polish past and these part of the past which was common to both nations.


They were both the same - had completely NO scruples, but Stalin was mentally healthier, beheld further in future. Anyway they are both boiling in the same tar kettle in the Hell, I hope!

I don't think that the forum Ukrainians understand that Poland is no threat to them.

The same as talking to BB on one occasion, I understand that you have a different point of view and different values. You subscribe to a nationalistic idea of pure nation. But you don't give the same to me. I have opinions. I subscribe to civillian idea of a state based on sitizenship. Res Publica Regni Poloniae, with a life long presidency called Kingship.

From your point of view, and I've given you tthat, you were fighting to separate us from you. From the nationalistic point of view, the blood lines of people who live in Ukraine and call themselves Ukrainian are local, therefore to you it means 'years of Ukraine'.

From my point of view, the Republic is a value in itself, and all the nations that form parts of it are citizens. (Yes, Jews, too). From my point of view, Tatars are not local - but they are citizens, so they are Poles. From that point of view, there are no thousands of years of Ukraine, but of Ukrainians. And Poles, and yes, there were German tribes, Celtic tribes, Goth tribes, you name it. Hungarians, wandering Scandinavians, etc, because we have no natural borders. And Germans were good citizens, good tradesmen.

So when I give you my understanding, I also tell you what my point of view is. I want your understanding. There was a common value that everybody except the Ukrainians and the Jews in Socialist Party fought for. It was the return of the Republican Kingdom (which Pilsudski, the old Socialist, illegally changed into a Democracy).

I believe that if your, Ukrainian, national process had taken part in a different time, you would be able to just sign out of the Union (not that we would be happy, we would have made obstacles, of course). But it was the war, and you were too savage to slow yourself down.

You mean backwards Ukraine with a shrinking economy and a false history built on national complexes, a country shunned by Europe and looked down upon by Russia is a "beatifull thing"?

Possibly the only regional power that even cares about you as anything more then a political pawn is Poland and you spit it in the face with all the Bandera bull, Ukrainians are incredible people, they're poor and have no allies on this continent and still you antagonize one of the few countries that gives a pencil about your well being.

Ukrainians - masters of shooting themselves in the foot, really a beatifull thing :)

How is Ukraine shunned by Europe, Sok? You constantly imply that having wealth brings with it a good character, what drivel!

Poland gives a jot about Lvov and using Ukraine as a shield Vs Russia. Just look at Aug 2008 as evidence of that.

If we gave less than a jot and actually tried to have it, imagine what you would say then, Seanus...

Can't make everybody happy. Oh, well.

Poland lost Ukraine as a result of sh1tty treatment of fellow Slavs.I had the "honour" to feel a bit of it when polish authorities passed me for an Ukrainian in the train from Lvov and after this special treatment I know exactly how Ukrainians have felt.

If you tried to take back Lwów? The consequences would be pretty drastic, I imagine.

no, what you would say. now you say, 'Poland doesn't give a jot'.
Would you be more happy if we were aggressive?
Would you be more happy if Poland claimed the territorial losses when the USSR was falling apart? It's legal to do it, in such a case, OUN would agree.

We have NOT.

Turkey is put before Ukraine as a prospective EU member thats one example, Ukraine is not a part of NATO or EU or for that fact any significant political structures in Europe and there's no drive by Western powers to include it in them, its basically a political outcast.


Heck no, i constantly imply that Ukrainian national character is primitive filled with falsehoods and generations away from being well developed, i never said money equals kindness.


Thats the problem with you Sean, you live here you work here you're going to have kids here (or have already) but you're not quite there yet as a Pole :)

Poland does give a jot about Lwów, its just not willing to risk its well being to take it and even if it was willing what would we do with it? In Poland it used to be pride and jewel of the country, under Ukrainian administration it deteriorated to a point where taking it back would basically topple our economy.

And yes we would love to use Ukraine as a shield, care to elaborate on 08?

Did this "special treatment" make you want to murder Polish civilians?

Same goes for Inflanty - I would be proud if Królewiec was a Polish city, but Kaliningrad? AIDS and rusty missiles...