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Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians?


TheOther 6 | 3,692
31 Oct 2012 #91
How many of them were common opportunists and how many were really convinced about Nazi ideology?

You didn't have to be a die hard Nazi or even a friend of Nazi Germany. Installing a puppet regime like Vichy France was enough to keep the population under control for a long time. Even after a German withdrawal, the threat of a repeat invasion would have been sufficient to keep these regimes in line (i.e., acting in the German interest) in my opinion. And don't forget there were other fascist nations in Europe at that time. Franco for example survived until the mid 1970's, which shows that I am probably right with my assumption about long term population control.

In all history of mankind you will never find two democratic states that went to war with one another!

Funny though that two nations which are proud to belong to the group of very old democracies are also responsible for most of the wars that were fought in the past three centuries. Not to mention that these two "defenders of freedom and democracy" are also guilty of committing some of the worst atrocities in history. What I'm saying is that claiming to be a democracy or republic doesn't mean much if you are not living up to your own standards. You can still show some pretty sh*tty behavior.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
31 Oct 2012 #92
The Proclaimation Act of the Ukrainian State

Hail to the heroic German Army and its Fuhrer Adolf Hitler! Ukraine for the Ukrainians! Down with Moscow! Down with the foreign power on the Ukrainian land! We are building our Ukrainian Independent State!

It is well known that German Nazies didn`t invision any independance for Ukraine.They planed to eliminate 25% of Ukraininas
and use another 35-40 % as a slave workforce. They planed to convert Crymea into part of Germany.Proclaime independance of Ukraine and give reference to Hitler is laughable.Maybe some sick people?I still didn`t receive any credible explanation why would Ukrainians hate Poles in 1941 so much.Do Poles oppress them after Hitler invasion?Or it`s the same for Ukrainians whom to kill? And why all Ukrainians should carry responsibility for a small group of ultranationalists?UPA was not a regular Ukrainian army.Rather some maraudeurs.

Hey, you are reverting back to the old Soviet ways of laying all WWII crimes on Germany's doorstep!

Personally I relate to Germans quite well and value many aspects of their culture.But I think there is nothing affraid for you.
Reputation of Germans will not suffer to mach even if somebody will discover more Nazi crimes.Do not you see that all this anti-Ukrainian propaganda is based on stupid and disgusting racism and is not proportional to their crimes?Poles are not concerned about German crimes up to the level it would influence their opinion too much.
Dominika99 1 | 93
31 Oct 2012 #93
My father's uncle was send to forest for wood by his father.Everyone told him it wasn't save because of Ukrainians but he said it's rubbish My father's uncle went and later horses came back with his sliced body.

Does this effect what you think of the Ukrainian people today? Just curious.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
31 Oct 2012 #94
It seems there is large number of people on this forum who`s relatives exprienced some crimes from side of Ukrainians.
The strange coincidance...
And what was exact

total

numbers of UPA dead victims?

Honesly I do not know what happened to any uncle of my father or mother.
I would be glad to have so strong family ties and memory!
Dominika99 1 | 93
31 Oct 2012 #95
I have no idea... I don't know what UPA is.

But older people talk about the war a lot. It was so traumatic for them that I think they'll never get over it, and they constantly think about it even today.

My grandma loves to repeat this story about how her "true love" was shot down by Ukrainians... he was supposedly heartbroken because she refused to kiss him or marry him, and he ran straight into some Ukrainians because he wanted to die. I told her anybody in the world would shoot a guy down if he was from the opposing army and running towards them. But she loves to tell the story anyways, and sometimes she talks about how the Ukrainians were particularly brutal when they killed Poles.

I never really thought about the Ukrainians much, and I had no opinion of them, but now I have a best friend from there and those stories **** me off.

So one part of me thinks I should read and get to know more about my country's history, because I didn't grow up here and I didn't study history in a Polish school.

Another part of me knows that I don't have to read anything.

I already know that what my grandma says about them is ********.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
31 Oct 2012 #96
My father's uncle was send to forest for wood by his father.Everyone told him it wasn't save because of Ukrainians but he said it's rubbish

You see, people are so stupidly careless...

he was supposedly heartbroken because she refused to kiss him or marry him, and he ran straight into some Ukrainians because he wanted to die.

And even so suicidal...
Lenka 3 | 2,876
31 Oct 2012 #97
Does this effect what you think of the Ukrainian people today? Just curious.

Of course not.It would be stupid.Some ppl hurt my family but they are probably dead now.Why should I hate the whole nation for the doings of a few ,probably desperate, ppl.I don't want to say that it was all right to kill that young boy but the whole nation has nothing to do with it.Although I can understand that some wounds are too deep to heal and old ppl have the right to feel anger for what they expirienced.

You see, people are so stupidly careless...

It was careless but does it justify murder?
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
1 Nov 2012 #98
Well, but didn`t 225.000 of Poles served in German Vermacht? And they also killed Russian and Ukrainian soldiers.(directly or indirectly) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2012 #99
Ah, Vlad, the old " Don't they beat negroes in America" trick.
At some point you will realize that you are chating with teenage girls, who are proud of their ignorance. Good luck.
The rest of us are not interested in your propaganda, especially about Katyn. Re: German rounds at Katyn
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin

For the girl willing to learn her country's history:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
1 Nov 2012 #100
At some point you will realize that you are chating with teenage girls, who are proud of their ignorance.

Yes,but why even teenage girls should be abused from side of big bandits who restrict their right for comunication
and counterfeit their ``posts``???
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2012 #101
I don't understand your post, but never mind. No one is restricting anyone in their display of ignorance. There was a time when it was discouraged.

Just to come back to Katyn for a second and then we can get back to our "racism" toward Ruskies and Ukis.

If the Russian gov't would release all documents pertaining to Katyn Massacre, reclassify the crime (at present, thte officers murdered are called common criminals(sic)), we could get on to improving our relations. There are other significant problems like

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August%C3%B3w_roundup

in which the Russians are playing dumb. Till then, we will consider your nation undemocratic, unfriendly, and not yet part of the civilized world. This has nothing to do with person-to-person relations with Russians as those are quite friendly. I have Russian, Ukrainian, and Belorussian friends and they don't experience any "racism",and have traveled in Russia(all the way to Krasnaya Kraina) and never had any problems due to my nationality either.

One last thing about Katyn. There is an opinion of some of our historians about Russia's reluctance to release the documents:

In 2008, the Polish Foreign Ministry asked the government of Russia about alleged footage of the massacre filmed by the NKVD during the killings. Polish officials believe that this footage, as well as further documents showing cooperation of Soviets with the Gestapo during the operations, are the reason for Russia's decision to classify most of the documents about the massacre.[92] wiki

I've read that the original of the film was passed on to North Korea in 1951,( training film?) but a copy is in the Russian files.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
1 Nov 2012 #102
If the Russian gov't would release all documents pertaining to Katyn Massacre, reclassify the crime (at present, thte officers murdered are called common criminals(sic)), we could get on to improving our relations. There are other significant problems like ... in which the Russians are playing dumb. Till then, we will consider your nation undemocratic, unfriendly, and not yet part of the civilized world.

First of all I`m Ukrainian and was born in Ukraine though my native languages are both Russian and Ukrainian.Secondly I do not uderstand why modern Russia should solely respond for actions of Stalin`s USSR.Any argumented basis?Let`s Poles make claimes to all 15 republics of former USSR and apply in different courts on all of them.It would be fair.Well, except Baltic states.

At its peak Soviet population constituted 275 millions and ethnical Russians were 126 millions of them.Less than 50%. Soviet governmet was more them multiethnical.So what is this bullying toward ethical Russians?

This has nothing to do with person-to-person relations with Russians as those are quite friendly. I have Russian, Ukrainian, and Belorussian friends and they don't experience any "racism",and have traveled in Russia(all the way to Krasnaya Kraina) and never had any problems due to my nationality either.

Yes I know it , but the problem is that Ukrainians and Russians often experience racism from side of Poles.That`s a game with only one goal.And I feel that some Poles play dumb too...
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2012 #103
I do not uderstand why modern Russia should solely respond for actions of Stalin`s USSR.Any argumented basis?

The Germans are not trying to cover up Hitler's crimes, so we can get on with economic war, which we are clearly losing. On the other hand, today's Russia is making excuses for Stalin's crimes, considers us an official enemy, and is very active in our and your country's internal affairs. Putin had stated that the single worst thing that had happened to Russia was the loss of its conquered republics and satellite states. He is working on remedying that "mistake."

So what is this bullying toward ethical Russians?

You know, as much as it is oversimplifying things, anyone east of us is a Rusek and if you scratch him a little, you'll have a Tatar. No, don't get angry, mate.

the problem is that Ukrainians and Russians often experience racism from side of Poles.

Some people have their own inferiority issues and like to take it out on others. I think our present gov't has abandoned Ukraine's drive to join the EU and that is a larger problem. Plus, it has made verydifficult for Ukrainians to establish legal residence in Poland. Government friendly media in Poland, which is about all of them, have not mentioned the recent scandalous practices in Polish Consulats in Ukraine.

Anyway, half of your country wants to go with Russia and half with EU, so the problem is internal. I take it you're not in the Swoboda camp.
legend 3 | 664
1 Nov 2012 #104
considers us an official enemy, and is very active in our and your country's internal affairs. Putin had stated that the single worst thing that had happened to Russia was the loss of its conquered republics and satellite states. He is working on remedying that "mistake."

Do you have any sources/links for this? I am just curious thats all. Either Polish or English language is okay.
Meathead 5 | 495
1 Nov 2012 #105
I mean what the hell did the West to do help Poland in WWII?

Why? The West offered the Marshall Plan but the Russians cabashed the whole idea.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_plan
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2012 #106
Do you have any sources/links for this?

"First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century," Putin said.

msnbc.msn.com/id/7632057/ns/world_news/t/putin-soviet-collapse-genuine-tragedy/#.UJH7Xm-ulfE
legend 3 | 664
1 Nov 2012 #107
Okay. I was hoping more about the part where Putin says Poland is an enemy?

You said he/they are very active in Polish internal affairs. So are Israelis, Germans, Americans! Are they any better? I dont think so.

And finally the comment about remedying that "mistake" you made... This can mean just about anything. It might mean he simply wants to strengthen the relationship between Russia and Poland?
Meathead 5 | 495
1 Nov 2012 #108
Funky Samoan is correct. You need to study WWII. No not the "Band of Brother" stuff but what the population was doing, the resistance movements. The Nazi's were particularly brutal (almost beyond description) and antagonized the local population everywhere they went. There were very virile resistant movements in every country (France, Denmark, Norway, Poland, etc.) No way that Germany could control all of Europe. England would never have capitulated to the Germans. America's Industrial capacity, along with England's leadership won both theaters, even if Germany would have been able to subjugate the Russians.

Spain survived because they stayed neutral. You can't construct a proper analogy between Spain and Germany. Hitler and Franco were totally different.

Another part of me knows that I don't have to read anything.

No, you need to read about WWII. Good books on the subject concern the SOE, Christine Granville would be a particularly good read, and the OSS, "The Wolves at the Door" the French Resistance movement. The Nazi's and Russians were really brutal in WWII. The Russians really did a number on German women during their occupation "the Woman from Berlin", book and DVD.
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2012 #109
Okay. I was hoping more about the part where Putin says Poland is an enemy?

Russia has threatened Nato with military strikes against in Poland and Romania if a missile defence radar and interceptors are deployed in Eastern Europe.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/9243954/Russia-threatens-Nato-with-military-strikes-over-missile-defence-system.html#

You said he/they are very active in Polish internal affairs. So are Israelis, Germans, Americans! Are they any better? I dont think so.

Right. Keep repeating like your papa did: Americans bad, Russians good.

It might mean he simply wants to strengthen the relationship between Russia and Poland?

He wants but it's coming out. Boy, are you naive.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
1 Nov 2012 #110
Some extreme estimates place the number of Polish victims as high as 300,000.[129][verification

They still cannot calculate exact number up to few hundreds of thousands.And it was in mid of 20-th century...
I wonder, how 300.000 of people, who could constitute entire nation, did allow to massacre themself and did not even try to cause any organized and armed resistance?Did Ukrainian Ins-t Army had tank and warplains to roll them over?What was their weapon actually?And did UPA soldiers have had any military experience?Well put to protect themself from a club or knife or even

double-barreled gun you just need to shore the doors and windows at night...
Nacjonalista 4 | 96
1 Nov 2012 #111
Ukraine is a beautiful slavic country were nationalism is strong. What is not to like? I consider them my brothers.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
1 Nov 2012 #112
Why? The West offered the Marshall Plan but the Russians cabashed the whole idea.

Bud did not Greece acceptepted Marchall plan too?And where is it now?
Proverb says: more haste - less spead.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
1 Nov 2012 #113
No way that Germany could control all of Europe.

I disagree. Stalin was able to do just that for a very long time.

The Nazi's were particularly brutal (almost beyond description) and antagonized the local population everywhere they went.

They were extremely brutal in the east and on the Balkans, but not nearly as much in the west (except for Jews and resistance fighters, of course). In Vichy France they didn't have to antagonize the population. The people went happily along (well, kind of) with Petain. Or why do you think that the French still have problems to talk about that, and why the south of France is the center of Le Pen’s Front Nationale? There's is a reason for that.

There were very virile resistant movements in every country

Yeah, especially in France where everyone was a resistance fighter after the war... ;)

England would never have capitulated to the Germans.

Without sufficient supplies they would have been forced to give up or sign a truce sooner or later. Britain had a great air force, but you can only produce so many planes and train so many pilots. If the Germans would have applied the same strategy that Stalin used in the east (sacrificing wave after wave after wave of troops until the enemy is overrun), Britain wouldn't have stood a chance on the long run.

along with England's leadership

Crying in Washington for a bail out out counts as proof for Churchill's quality of leadership? Granted: Britain was the only country in Europe standing up to Hitler (forget about France), but I don't believe for a second that their motive was noble. Fighting for democracy and the freedom of Poland? Yeah, right. Being afraid to lose their influence in Europe and abroad is more like it.

One more thing: wonder what would have happened to Britain if the Japanese wouldn't have attacked Pearl Harbor.
Dominika99 1 | 93
1 Nov 2012 #114
Hey Vlad (if you're Ukrainian) and anybody else who can tell me, I'm curious what Ukrainians think about Polish people?

I was talking to my friend from Donetsk today, and she said some Ukrainians consider Poles argumentative.

What the hell! Are you guys KIDDING me?

No, seriously :) Can you tell me the stereotypes? She didn't want to tell me any more, but I'd be interested to know. I'll keep in mind that it's only a minority of Ukrainians that think badly about Poles. And since I told you some Polish stereotypes about Ukrainians, maybe any of you can return the favour?
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
1 Nov 2012 #115
No, seriously :) Can you tell me the stereotypes? She didn't want to tell me any more, but I'd be interested to know. I'll keep in mind that it's only a minority of Ukrainians that think badly about Poles.

I`m affraid it would be difficult to me to cover entire scope of Ukrainian society.Personally I never heard Ukrainians to talk something about Poles.Ukrainans do not seem to be concerned to much about them particulary.My mother sometimes say something they are ``gonorovy`` and ``szlachetny``. In general it is assumed that Poles dislike Ukrainians and from childhood I remembered that in old times they called Ukrainians ``krvi psa`` and

``bydło``. Most of Ukrainians know from Gogol novels which they study in school that treatment of Ukrainians by Poles at times was very cruel. Recently I read comments of some modern Western Ukrainian (who seem to be worked for a Pole employer) that Pole will never treat Ukrainian as something equel to them. But among my personal known people I didn`t know someone who would work in Poland and therefore no converstion about them.What is concerning to my personal imagination from movies and cominication I find Polish society a bit boring.Majority of Ukrainians know that poles belong to Slavic culture and at times USSR it wasn`t even considered to be a completely abroad.I think it is assumed that Poles not against to drink a bit vodka sometimes.In Russia Poles are often associated as invadors who captured Moscow in 1611 and caused Times of troubles.There is some movies about it. But in general I didn`t hear something particulary bad about them.But you have to understand that Poles rarely visit Ukraine and Russia and contacts are very limited.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
1 Nov 2012 #116
According to this genetic map of Europe (enlarge image)
Poles and Russians are one of the most closest nations in Europe genetically.
Their icons are even overlapping!

That's true. Supposedly even closer to Russians than Czechs! One can safely answer than the reason for the turmoil is 'the biggest problems are always within family"
Dominika99 1 | 93
1 Nov 2012 #117
Recently I read comments of some modern Western Ukrainian (who seem to be worked for a Pole employer) that Pole will never treat Ukrainian as something equel to them.

My friend works here and she says she runs up against stereotypes regularly, so your friend is probably right.

What is concerning to my personal imagination from movies and cominication I find Polish society a bit boring.Majority of Ukrainians know that poles belong to Slavic culture and at times USSR it wasn`t even considered to be a completely abroad.

So Polish society is boring for you because it's so similar to Ukrainian culture?

I think it's boring because Poland is trying too hard to be European, or a part of the EU, and they forget that they're Slavs, not Protestants. We're closer to Moscow in our culture than we are to Brussels, but Polish people are too ashamed to admit that. It's like we're trying to be something we're not, and throwing away the common Slavic heritage all because of some war cr-p. That's just my opinion. It's like how Dostoyevsky thought in his days that Russia was forgetting its own culture and being too easily swayed by Western European ideas. Maybe we've got an inferiority complex?
legend 3 | 664
2 Nov 2012 #118
Right. Keep repeating like your papa did: Americans bad, Russians good.

I think they both have agendas. Yes I think Russians are better today at least in foreign policy.

And clearly from the more recent years USA loves to bomb innocent countries like: Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan. Funding "freedom fighter" terrorists near Turkey and Syria.

Putting sanctions of Iran so that people have less medications and access to money (people die from this).
And then you have morons like Mormon R'MONEY' who dont give a rats ass about the world around him (I am no supporter of Obama btw).

I am blaming the American government btw with the millions of clueless idiots who vote for the same two puppets over and over.

of France is the center of Le Pen's Front Nationale?

Hope she wins next time. The only real French woman left in Muslim France.

I think it's boring because Poland is trying too hard to be European, or a part of the EU, and they forget that they're Slavs, not Protestants. We're closer to Moscow in our culture than we are to Brussels, but Polish people are too ashamed to admit that. It's like we're trying to be something we're not, and throwing away the common Slavic heritage all because of some war cr-p.

You are right. Its a shame really.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Nov 2012 #119
So Polish society is boring for you because it's so similar to Ukrainian culture?

I have hard time to answer.

That's true. Supposedly even closer to Russians than Czechs!

Quite possibly.Czech migrated in Central Europe from territory of modern Ukraine
around 1.5 thousands years ago.There is some interesting coincidences between
Ukrainian and Czech words.While Polish lanuage started to form ultimately as a
separate language a bit over 1000 years ago.Before that it probably constitutes a language
which later splited into Western Polian and Eastern Polian language.Those later
deviated a bit in basic vocabulary and accepted many new words both invented and
borrowed and turned into Polish and Russian.You wan`t believe, but sometimes a Pole
could tell to somebody that Polish and Russian is the almost the same language.
Seriously.Some French-speaking woman with whom I did language exchange and
who studied Russian told me that some Pole wanted to do language exchange with
her too and told to her that this is practically the same languages.
But for now, of course, Russian and Polish are very difficult to understand mutually.
I`m not very obssessed with nationalities and also think it is not only important who
we are but also who could we become.
Also I may propose creation if international society of mutual interSlavic help in
which Slavic people who do not experience ethinical hate to each other would
communicate,study Slavic cultures and of course help each other materially.
I suggest that help of course should be mutual.
Also Union of Slavic states is unlikely in nearest perspective, private divisons
of such society could function in developed countries.
Meathead 5 | 495
2 Nov 2012 #120
I disagree. Stalin was able to do just that for a very long time.

Stalin didn't control anyone other than the Russians, he died in 1948. What controlled Eastern Europe was the political philosophy of Communism which was not discredited as it is today. In was considered the wave of the future.

The Germans were brutal everywhere. In Vichy France for instance they dislocated 1.5 million Frenchmen to Germany to work as slaves in their manufacturing plants. For instance when about a dozen French labor leaders protested the workers treatment, they were filed out and shot. The German army confiscated all the food from the countryside, the French didn't have access to basic necessities. Everything in France was rationed.

Without sufficient supplies they would have been forced to give up or sign a truce sooner or later.

You don't know the English. London endured the 1940 blitz and afterwards the buzz bombs until 1945. If they were as you say, prone to surrender or signing a truce they could have or would have done that in 1940 right after Dunkirk. Besides Dunkirk and

the blitz they endured their shipping being sunk by German U-Boats. England and the English were literally starving. As for wave after wave of German troops. Uh, hello, there's a sea channel between France and England. They'd have to launch an amphibious assault. Not easy, it would have been a bloodbath. You're making the mistake of looking at the past through the prism of the present. The English in the 1940's were a formidable army.

Crying in Washington for a bail out out counts as proof for Churchill's quality of leadership? Granted: Britain was the only country in Europe standing up to Hitler (forget about France), but I don't believe for a second that their motive was noble. Fighting for democracy and the freedom of Poland? Yeah, right. Being afraid to lose their influence in Europe and abroad is more like it.

Bailout? You mean loan? Being a business owner myself, one needs operating capital (loan, bailout to you) in order to function. The problem with Europe is because of the previous bloodbath (aka WWI) no one was prepared for WWII. In other words the citizenry of England and France didn't want war. When Germany overran France the remaining French didn't have any weaponry to defend themselves. England organized the Resistance movements of Europe with supplies and training, that's what I meant by leadership. They were the only country in Europe to stand up to the Germans. England's leadership is sorely missed in today's European financial crisis. Germany's gone wild, once again.

The people in the 1940's knew that they were fighting for their very survival. It was the American working man, the American GI and political leadership from England that won the war.


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