The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 496

Have Poles blood on their hands? :)


vetala - | 382
4 Jan 2010 #211
So only ethnic Poles "count" and not Polish citizens in general?

We're talking about pre-WWII Poland, a completely new state which appeared out of nowhere on ethnically mixed lands after more than a century of nonexistence. I'm sure many Russian, German and Austrian citizens didn't wish to suddenly change citizenship, especially if they wanted their own state instead.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,436
4 Jan 2010 #212
Germans in Silesia were minority.

Erm.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia#Demographics

"....In 1905, a census showed that 75% of the population was German and 25% Polish.

If you are a German and I am Polish and we speak to a true Sileasian, you'd understand 50%, I'd understand another 50% but Sileasian would understand 100%.

There are barely any "true" Silesians left as most who identified as Germans left (my family for example) and were replaced by displaced Poles from the lost eastern territories (Sokrates' family for example)...
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
4 Jan 2010 #213
We're talking about pre-WWII Poland, a completely new state which appeared out of nowhere on ethnically mixed lands after more than a century of nonexistence.

c'mon!

we are not Israel!
out of nowhere? As a Pole I feel really offended!
Ironside 49 | 10,661
4 Jan 2010 #214
The list of Poles who really do have blood on their hands.

Define "have blood on their hands" and tell me more about the list, because I have never before heard about existence of such list.

So it is Harry's list or something different?
Harry
4 Jan 2010 #215
^ Define? How about "took part in Nazi war crimes and/or crimes against humanity"? All three of the Poles I named above did just that and there are more.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
4 Jan 2010 #216
Bratwurst Boy
yep... could be but...

have you taken into account fact of germanization of Jews- and not only - from early 1700
or anyone rich - or richer basiically - who lived within Prussia?
Evene if they were Polish?
Barney 15 | 1,472
4 Jan 2010 #217
So only ethnic Poles "count" and not Polish citizens in general? Isn't that a bit too simple?

It seems simple but its not. Having an ethnic minority as citizens is legally correct but often those people ended up outside their state against their wishes, the vast majority will accept the new way but their hearts will be elsewhere. The majority state will refer to those minorities ironically as "the other" where all good deeds are in this case Polish and all bad deeds German, Ukrainian etc.

Where Germans treated badly in the second republic I dont know?
Did Germans treat Polish people harshly? Trying to extinguish a language is fairly harsh.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,436
4 Jan 2010 #218
Evene if they were Polish?

We are all actually "Germoles" !

Trying to extinguish a language is fairly harsh.

When you mean Bismarck's "Kulturkampf" that was more about breaking the catholic church's neck and to modernize, secularize Prussia (it was a german catholic trying to assassinate Bismarck for that)...not extinguish polish but enforcing german as school language, first language in the multi- ethnic state Prussia was.

(Not that much different as the Poles tried with the Ukrainians as every nationstate needed to have one primary language only)
TheOther 5 | 3,762
4 Jan 2010 #219
The majority state will refer to those minorities ironically as "the other" where all good deeds are in this case Polish and all bad deeds German, Ukrainian etc.

Well, that's what Harry meant and that's what I was also trying to point out: painting everything in black and white is too easy.
Barney 15 | 1,472
4 Jan 2010 #220
enforcing german as school language, first language in the multi- ethnic state Prussia was.

That sounds good if you spoke German

Not that much different as the Poles tried with the Ukrainians

He did it so its ok?

Well, that's what Harry meant and that's what I was also trying to point out.

Sorry, I'll have to pay closer attention.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
4 Jan 2010 #221
lol

but must agree with Ukraine issue.

Many hated us for it. Like some Czech.
I blame Władek and Jagiellonka for it...
if they didnt start it we wouldnt hear about Poland from sea (Baltic) to sea (Black)
:)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,436
4 Jan 2010 #222
He did it so its ok?

I think it was ok for that time and even today immigrant/minority children are forced to learn the primary language.
A multi ethnic state can't work otherwise...
kith 1 | 72
4 Jan 2010 #223
Define? How about "took part in Nazi war crimes and/or crimes against humanity"? All three of the Poles I named above did just that and there are more

Yes, Harry, but the other millions and millions of Poles don't have blood on their hands and Hollywood doesn't tell their stories. Actually, The Pianist did. It showed Poles who risked their lives and some who lost their lives trying to protect Jews.

My point is that Poles hate those scumbag Poles who worked with the Nazis. Poles love the Poles who created the underground and fought against the Nazis. The Sheeple who watch Hollywood movies will believe that every Pole was cooperating with the Nazis. This just isn't true. Why not say, "There were bad Poles (the ones on your 'list') and there were good Poles who risked everything to help Jews and fight against the Nazis. I know Jews who do this and they don't like Jews and others who believe everything that they see in a movie.
Ironside 49 | 10,661
4 Jan 2010 #224
All three of the Poles I named above did just that and there are more.

Whatever they were Poles or Polish citizen I care not, as taking part in Nazi crimes was collaborating with enemy and as such they were traitors.

Even if you could name 30 - which you cannot :) - it means exactly nothing!
What are you trying to do?
Every country have criminals and renegades, Poles didn't formed armed unit to support Hitler as many others - read it - Renegades: Hitler's Englishmen by Adrian Weale. :)

crimes against humanity"

And what is that ? precisely
Barney 15 | 1,472
4 Jan 2010 #225
I think it was ok for that time and even today immigrant/minority children are forced to learn the primary language.

I largely agree but the point about the allegiances of The Germanic minority in The Second Republic brings up issues of how they were treated, enforcing the Polish language on German speakers cant then be used as a legimate grievance using the logic of the quote.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
4 Jan 2010 #226
there were bad Poles, bad Germans, bad Ukrainians, bad Russians

outnumbered however by good Germans, Poles, Ukraininas and Russians

i know about good Germans - during the war - and bad Russians - during the same war.
As a project work I happened to interview in the late 80. those who lived during the war, and survived, in my city. It wasn't a nice story, but Germans got top marks compare to Russians who were in my town at the end of the war. Russians who were known for violence and rape (interviewed mostly women)

But one thing - you cant blame a nation. Blame a pack, a group, an invidual, Not a nation.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,436
4 Jan 2010 #227
I largely agree but the point about the allegiances of The Germanic minority in The Second Republic brings up issues of how they were treated, enforcing the Polish language on German speakers cant then be used as a legimate grievance using the logic of the quote.

One thing had both in common...the Poles hated to be under prussian/german rule and the Germans hated it under new-polish rule!

Both mistreated and abused the other at first chance and opportunity. That's why so many polish Volksdeutsche prefered the invading Germans..

But one thing - you cant blame a nation. Blame a pack, a group, an invidual, Not a nation.

The creation of nationstates meant mostly hell for the many different ethnics in Europe...most of our conflicts and grudges stem from the experiences made then...
Ironside 49 | 10,661
4 Jan 2010 #228
All three of the Poles

All three :D? **** I guess you have a case Harry:D

quote=nincompoop_not]but must agree with Ukraine issue.

Many hated us for it. Like some Czech.
I blame Władek and Jagiellonka for it...
if they didnt start it we wouldnt hear about Poland from sea (Baltic) to sea (Black)
:)[/quote]
blah blah go to the kitchen woman !
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,436
4 Jan 2010 #229
blah blah go to the kitchen woman !

Nathan agrees with nincompoop (and he is our board Ukrainian)! ;)
Ironside 49 | 10,661
4 Jan 2010 #230
he is our board Nazi if anything and maybe Canadian or else ...who knows:)
Barney 15 | 1,472
4 Jan 2010 #231
That's why so many polish Volksdeutsche prefered the invading Germans..

If I had been one I would have felt the same.

The creation of nationstates were mostly hell for the many different ethnics in Europe...most of our conflicts and grudges stem from the experiences made then...

Again I agree with you drawing artificial lines is not good and has led to countless tragedies throughout the world.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jan 2010 #232
lol

the first thing - learn to quote - got lost for a minute
the second - WTF is 'second republic'?!?!
some american term for what? Poland at some state?
bloody ignorants as usual...
and then you are looking for your predecessors not having a blinking idea where to start cos you are ..ignorant! giving your own names to whatever

Ah, you mean II Rzeczpospolita?
do you even know when - and what - was the first one was?
tell you - there never actually was one. there was a commonwealth but not republic.
however, as the story goes, we treat it as the first independent Poland etc etc tec
then we had a **** with partitions etc, then you had Pilsudski and his 'republic' , then you had Walesa and now talks about IV republic - whatever they call it

rzeczpospolita is not actually 'republic';

learn about Polish history and come back to talk about it

if you want to know it was the agreement between Jagiello (king of Lithuania) to marry Jagienka - this is how it became 'rzeczpospolita oboja narodow' (commonwealth) - Poland and Lithuania

Poland should be called a democratic / whatever state
When Rzeczpospolita it wasnt republic at all> It was a kingdom - and didnt have a PM back then like UK has got - for example

any richer knight - if unhappy - could call a rebellion - and one did - in Ukraine - Chmielewski was his name

go, read and learn - and then come back to talk about second republica, republica or other crap
TheOther 5 | 3,762
5 Jan 2010 #233
rzeczpospolita is not actually 'republic'

So this

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rzeczpospolita

is partly wrong?
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jan 2010 #234
yep

'republic' or a Polish republic is mostly used (and rather incorrectly in terms of history) by the Polish government since Pilsudski.

nothing to do with 'rzeczpospolita' (the very first one)

there was never a 'first republic' and the only thing before that - which they mostly refer to - was a Polish commonwealth (Rzczpospolita Obojga Narodow - something like United Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania)
Barney 15 | 1,472
5 Jan 2010 #235
the first thing - learn to quote - got lost for a minute

You got lost? I'm sure you will find your Ivory tower soon.

the second - WTF is 'second republic'?!?!

It’s what interwar Poland is known as in English

Ah, you mean II Rzeczpospolita?

There is a time and place for pedantry

bloody ignorants as usual...
and then you are looking for your predecessors not having a blinking idea where to start cos you are ..ignorant! giving your own names to whatever

I'm glad you got that off your chest but I dont know what it means or am I being a bit pedantic here with you lack of quotes?
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jan 2010 #236
Barney

frankly - i think it IS important

because of an American ignorance/laziness - call it whatever you want - on Ellis, for example, many people lost their identities.

so yes, I do think that being freak**ing precise in what and who and when IS important.

Otherwise we may end up like America - not knowing that Goldwyn and Mayer was from Polish Jews families or a woman who - apparently - introduced shimmy was Polish also

so yes - get lost
Ironside 49 | 10,661
5 Jan 2010 #237
hey What the **** are talking about ?
Barney and Mrs no to random - admin?

get lost both of you:P
TheOther 5 | 3,762
5 Jan 2010 #238
because of an American ignorance/laziness - call it whatever you want - on Ellis, for example, many people lost their identities

Because they were listed as Russians, Prussians/Germans or Austrians, and not as Poles? That's nonsense. The immigration officers at Ellis Island and elsewhere didn't care about ethnicity (most of the time); citizenship was important.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
5 Jan 2010 #239
^ Define? How about "took part in Nazi war crimes and/or crimes against humanity"? All three of the Poles I named above did just that and there are more.

Three Poles and maybe more?...Actually, this is quite a good record considering, if you look at, say, the US government, Israelis, even UK leadership, as reflected in events in the Middle East right now.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jan 2010 #240
Because they were listed as Russians, Prussians/Germans or Austrians, and not as Poles?

because of 'f-off' attitude writing their surnames!

edit - you must be American! Only Americans can show that level of ignorance. And some wonder why do Polish hate Americans..

edit 2 - I had a look at your profile - wasn't mistaken. No Brits would type 'currently enjoying the West Coast.
Most of Brits do not know wthat WC is.


Home / History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :)
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.