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Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland



Barney 14 | 1,472    
14 May 2012  #1

"Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland" a phrase used in the name meanings thread. Does anyone in Poland use this phrase or really think that the Ukraine is occupying Polish land?


Ironside 46 | 8,407    
14 May 2012  #2

Why ? but they do!
Hipis - | 227    
14 May 2012  #3

Agreed.
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
14 May 2012  #4

Let's talk about "Polish-occupied East Germany" ... ;)
Hipis - | 227    
14 May 2012  #5

Sure :) I assume you mean the territory that was Polish before it was conquered by the Bohemians which was then conquered by Prussia and subsequently returned to Poland in 1945 :)
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
14 May 2012  #6

I was talking about the territory of the Teutonic Order (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Teutonic_Order_1410.png) that Poland and other countries are still occupying to this very day. But now that you've mentioned it: Poland should give back Pomerania and Silesia as well... :)
Hipis - | 227    
14 May 2012  #7

Ah, you mean the territory the Teutonic Order controlled that was owned by the Polish crown which the grand Duke was supposed to pay annual fealty but then forged a document to the Vatican which claimed the Polish king had gifted the land to the order.
OP Barney 14 | 1,472    
14 May 2012  #8

There are lots of threads about Polish-Ukranian relations

I'm interested in whether anyone currently uses such terms and how would others react, It struck me as odd.
I believe that saying something like that would cause a double take a WTF moment or people would think you were taking the p*ss
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
14 May 2012  #9

Ah, you mean the territory the Teutonic Order controlled that was owned by the Polish crown which the grand Duke was supposed to pay annual fealty but then forged a document to the Vatican which claimed the Polish king had gifted the land to the order.

See, you've understood... ;)
Polonius3 1,019 | 12,575    
14 May 2012  #10

Lands stolen from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the aggressive partitoning powers are Polish. Lands granted to Polland at Germany's expense by the Big Three Allies constituted only partial compensation for German atrocities as well as the one-half of Poland annexed by Stalin (under Molotov-Ribbentrop) and never returned. Had the Polish-Lithuanina-Ruthenian commonwealth survived, there may have never been a Soviet Union or a World War Two for that matter.
OP Barney 14 | 1,472    
14 May 2012  #11

Whatever the ins and outs of it you can't wish for a story that never happened that is just pure fantasy.
Poland's borders are fixed.

I've never heard anyone use that term or even recognise it as a legitimate claim.
Hipis - | 227    
14 May 2012  #12

See, you've understood... ;)

:) I am glad we have reached an understanding.

I think this issue has been debated several times on here over the years so maybe it's not a good idea to go through it all again. :) What would be interesting though would be seeing a map of Europe if all the countries borders were redrawn to their 11th century equivalent as Poland's were in 1945.
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
14 May 2012  #13

seeing a map of Europe if all the countries borders were redrawn to their 11th century equivalent

Germany would be quite happy:

Germany map
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
14 May 2012  #14

Let's talk about "Polish-occupied East Germany" ..

try your luck !
I don't understand it is off-topic. There many thread about that ....what are you doing here (in this thread ) you pest !?
I say if Germany have any claims they can try their luck - end off !

I've never heard anyone use that term or even recognise it as a legitimate claim.

It is not Ireland! In Poland nobody uses such expression, we would say Kresy or lost territories !
Claims ? There issues at hand which need to be sorted first !
Hipis - | 227    
14 May 2012  #15

I'm not sure you could call the territories of the Holy Roman Empire as being "German", not all of them anyway. Also, there would be know Germany because Germany as an entity did not exist until 1870. Even the German states used to war amongst themselves with Prussia eventually coming out on top and being the dominant force in German politics under the Kaiser and Von Bismarck.
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
14 May 2012  #16

I don't understand it is off-topic.

You completely missed the point, Iron. There are as many rightful Polish claims to Ukrainian territory as there are German claims to Polish territory: zero, zilch, none. We are living in 2012, not in the 1920's.

I'm not sure you could call the territories of the Holy Roman Empire as being "German"

I know, but that's how the country defines itself historically AFAIK.
pawian 127 | 6,555    
14 May 2012  #17

Does anyone in Poland use this phrase or really think that the Ukraine is occupying Polish land?

I have never heard it before.

Actually, none of my acquaintances in Krakow ever mentions those territories. It is a foreign country today.

Lands stolen from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the aggressive partitoning powers are Polish.

You forgot to add ex before Polish.

What would be interesting though would be seeing a map of Europe if all the countries borders were redrawn to their 11th century equivalent as Poland's were in 1945.

Do you really want that? :(:(:(:(:

Compare the maps:

I wouldn`t like to lose so much seaside lands. Would you? I thought you love Poland.
Hipis - | 227    
14 May 2012  #18

Pawian, it was on that principle that Stalin re-drew the Polish borders and I guess the UK and USA also agreed. It's not my idea of where our borders should be but I'm not going to go into that as it's been argued about too many times on here. Also as you say, this 21st century and hopefully all that territorial crap is behind us. Our borders are where they are now and there is still much to be done wit the territory we have to bring it up to modern standards without having to deal with the mess that our Lost Territories are in.
pawian 127 | 6,555    
14 May 2012  #19

You are reading my mind.
jon357 70 | 12,784    
14 May 2012  #20

Occupation has a precise meaning. No part of Poland so occupied nor is Poland occupying anywhere else.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569    
15 May 2012  #21

I was talking about the territory of the Teutonic Order that Poland and other countries are still occupying to this very day.

Ah, you mean the territory the Teutonic Order controlled that was owned by the Polish crown which the grand Duke was supposed to pay annual fealty but then forged a document to the Vatican which claimed the Polish king had gifted the land to the order.

You just got owned Otter.

Hipis, it had always been my understanding the Teutonic knights were invited to the area known as Prussia to assist in conquering the original Prussian inhabitants, subsequently refusing to leave, until being permitted to exist pursuant to the Prussian Homage?

yeah yeah we know your obsession ...

Tell me about it...

He even tried to argue that szlachta weren't nobility.

As to occupation, whenever a foreign power deposits itself, its agents or its proxies, in a sovereign country to which it has no jurisdiction or consent to occupy, that is an occupation. It matters not that the occupied subsequently were forced, cajoled or entreated to set up an indigenous puppet regime (be it political or militarily), moreso, particularly where the occupying power has done so as an act of territorial aggrandisement rather than in retaliation for the occupied commencing hostilities.

If there is no legitimate and genuine consent from the occupied to be occupied, first had and obtained by the occupying power before occupation, then there is no basis upon which to try to legitimise the occupation ex post facto.

Likewise, there is no "Statute of Limitations" or similar preventing discussion on matters that occurred in the 1920's, the 1620's or indeed in any other epoch. To argue that the discussion is not relevant because of some mythical time line is no argument at all and is pure mischief.
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
15 May 2012  #22

You just got owned

Nope... :)
See #9 and #16

As to occupation, whenever a foreign power deposits itself, its agents or its proxies, in a sovereign country to which it has no jurisdiction or consent to occupy, that is an occupation.

So Poland was an occupier after the Polish-Soviet war in 1921?
Ozi Dan 26 | 569    
15 May 2012  #23

So Poland was an occupier after the Polish-Soviet war in 1921?

Was it?
Funky Samoan 2 | 181    
15 May 2012  #24

"Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland"

Didn't Poland accept its Eastern Border with Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine in international treaties?

As a German I can deeply understand that some of you refuse to accept Lwów, Wilno, Bresc and other Kresy cities as foreign territory, but there are certain realities that need to be accepted: Poland does not have the demographic power to (re-)Polonize those cities. It couldn't even Polonize one single city like present day Lviv that is close to the Polish eastern border. How many Poles would like to move to Lviv if they had the chance to?

Or would you leave the Ukrainian population there and then try to govern a city, thats population probably would react hostile to Polish state representatives?

In my opinion both scenarios would isolate Poland in Europe completely and destroy the Polish economy.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,382    
15 May 2012  #25

Didn't Poland accept its Eastern Border with Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine in international treaties?

Yes on all counts.
Funky Samoan 2 | 181    
15 May 2012  #26

I'm not sure you could call the territories of the Holy Roman Empire as being "German", not all of them anyway.

You are absolutely right about that! But please note the Holy Roman Empire is as German or Non-German as the Polish-Lithuanian Rzeczpospolita is Polish in the modern sense of the word.

I've always found it interesting that in many Polish discussions the Holy Roman Empire does not play a role at all, while in contrary the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is treated like it was an ethnically uniform state. The amount of ethnic Germans in the HRR was higher than the amount of Poles in the First Rzeczpospolita.
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
15 May 2012  #27

Was it?

You tell me. You can't on one hand lament about the "brutal oppression" that happened during the partitions, but on the other hand call it "taking back Polish lands" when Poland goes down the same route as her former occupiers (or rather countries that each annexed parts of Poland).

Most (if not all territories) in Europe once belonged to someone else than the current inhabitants, so what are Polish lands, German lands, French lands really? The lands of the previous owners. It makes no sense to talk about taking back "Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland" - unless you want another war, that is.
Polonius3 1,019 | 12,575    
15 May 2012  #28

Why be fixated on 11th century anything?! Poland's borders in the 15th and 16th centuries are more like it. That is the legitimate Polish realm to which it is a lot more entitled than the Rooskies whose tsars and commisars appropriated much of Eurasia or the Pommies who once claimed the sun never set on their Union Jack rag.
Funky Samoan 2 | 181    
15 May 2012  #29

Really? Then please indulge me by answering the following questions:

How do you want to move the Polish eastern frontier back to the state of the year 1600, without fighting a war against Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania and Latvia? Since Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania would fight for their existence as independent states and nations you better should be prepared for a lot of resistance from their side, let alone the Russians with thousands of nuclear weapons they still possess.

Who in the world would support Poland in its vendetta? What is going to happen with the population that lives in these territories?

Also I guess you want to leave the present German-Polish where it is since 1945 or do you want to "return" to the historical border between the Holy Roman Empire and the First Rzeczpospolita?
pawian 127 | 6,555    
15 May 2012  #30

Really? Then please indulge me by answering the following questions:

Come on, Polo was only joking.
Although those American Poles love showing their hurra patriotism without considering consequences, in case of Eastern borders Polo is too intelligent to really believe what he is saying.




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