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Poland - Scotland, the untold story...


dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
5 Aug 2010  #1
How many people here know that in the 17th century a Polish princess married a Scottish King in exile?
A little clue...
On the death of his father he was declared 'James III' and recognised as such by Louis XIV of France. He married a Polish Princess, Maria Clementina Sobieski on 3 Sept, 1719, by whom he had issue. Three failed Jacobite uprisings were lead in his name, in 1715, 1719 and 1745, James died in Rome on 1 January, 1766 and was buried within St.Peter's Basilica, the Vatican.
enkidu 7 | 623
5 Aug 2010  #2
All I know is that in eastern Poland you can still find people, who are look and behave like Scotts.
OP dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
5 Aug 2010  #3
It was from this Polish Princess that the Jacobite rebellion started. Her son, from what i can remember is Bonnie Prince Charlie...
Bzibzioh
5 Aug 2010  #4
All I know is that in eastern Poland you can still find people, who are look and behave like Scotts.

They are frugal, not cheap ;) and shut up!!!

It was from this Polish Princess

What was her name?
OP dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
5 Aug 2010  #5
What was her name?

I said before, Maria Clementina Sobieski.
Bzibzioh
5 Aug 2010  #6
Oh, you edited. She was a granddaughter of king Jan III Sobieski. Yeah, those European aristocrats were marring each other so they are all connected in some way to this day.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,500
6 Aug 2010  #7
Her son, from what i can remember is Bonnie Prince Charlie...

Whose middle names were Casimir and Silvester.
David_18 68 | 982
7 Aug 2010  #8
Nothing new to me ;)

They almost got the french to invade Britain!!!

His father managed to obtain the support of the French government in 1744, and Charles Edward traveled to France with the sole purpose of commanding a French army, which he would lead in an invasion of England. The invasion never materialized, principally due to the fact that the French were afraid of the much stronger British army and, to a lesser extent, because of poor weather that prohibited sailing. Undeterred, Charles Edward was determined to carry on in his quest for reinstatement of the Stuarts regardless.

/wiki/Charles_Edward_Stuart

On 8 February 1744 Charles arrived at Paris and during February and March he was with the French invasion force. Maurice of Saxony had between 12,000 and 15,000 French troops at Dunkirk ready for a landing in Essex

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_rising_of_1745
Maria Clementina Sobieska

/wiki/Maria_Clementina_Sobieska
OP dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
7 Aug 2010  #9
They almost got the french to invade Britain!!!

Point is, when the Scottish army reached Dover Castle, they never needed the French.
David_18 68 | 982
7 Aug 2010  #10
The brits feared for their lifes!!

On 31 August George returned to London from Hanover. On 4 September the Duke of Newcastle wrote to the Duke of Cumberland, requesting ten battalions of British soldiers:
Though I have constantly seen the reality and danger of this attempt to invade His Majesty's dominions, I did not imagine that, in so short a time, the Pretender's son, with an army of 3,000 men, would have got between the King's troops and England, and be within a few days' march of Edinburgh, where, some think, we shall soon hear that he is; and that he may attempt to call a Parliament there. Others rather suppose that he will proceed with his army through England, where there no regular troops to oppose him, 'till he comes towards London

Seems like this Charles was a little William Wallace of his own ;)

Braveheart for the win!!!!!
OP dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
7 Aug 2010  #11
Seems like the brits feared for their lifes!!

Alexander 2nd was true King of Scots.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
7 Aug 2010  #12
I said before, Maria Clementina Sobieski.

The daughter of great Jan Sobiseki, Saviour of Vienna in 1688, common knowledge.
Bzibzioh
7 Aug 2010  #13
The daughter

The granddaughter.

1688,

1683
guzzler 1 | 88
7 Aug 2010  #14
It was from this Polish Princess that the Jacobite rebellion started. Her son, from what i can remember is Bonnie Prince Charlie...

Thats right he was the grandson of James 11, who was deposed by William of Orange after he invaded England with the help of some English traitors.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
7 Aug 2010  #15
My mistake

I am blushing now right now, I meant to say granddaughter, however i have no excuses for the date):
Trevek 26 | 1,702
24 Aug 2010  #16
Thats right he was the grandson of James 11, who was deposed by William of Orange after he invaded England with the help of some English traitors.

And aided by a few Scots as well.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Mackay

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe
poland_
24 Aug 2010  #17
All I know is that in eastern Poland you can still find people, who are look and behave like Scotts.

Many scots came to Poland and fought on behalf, you will this in the records in Gdansk and Krakow.
Crow 137 | 7,595
24 Aug 2010  #18
Poland - Scotland, the untold story...

i see Scotland as part of new Polish Commonwealth

all Celts with Poles!
George8600 10 | 637
24 Aug 2010  #19
How many people here know that in the 17th century a Polish princess married a Scottish King in exile?

Yes I know, exactly how significant is it? Not much...
Trevek 26 | 1,702
24 Aug 2010  #20
Many scots came to Poland and fought on behalf, you will this in the records in Gdansk and Krakow.

The Scots had over 12 self-governing 'brotherhoods' in different cities in Poland during 17th century. Established by order of James VI (II of England). Warsaw had a 3 times mayor called Alexander Chalmers (czarmerz) from Aberdeen (I think).
szkotja2007 27 | 1,500
24 Aug 2010  #21
he Scots had over 12 self-governing 'brotherhoods' in different cities in Poland during 17th century

Sounds interesting - any links ?

I have read about Czarmerz.
poland_
24 Aug 2010  #22
The Scots had over 12 self-governing 'brotherhoods' in different cities in Poland during 17th century. Established by order of James VI (II of England). Warsaw had a 3 times mayor called Alexander Chalmers (czarmerz) from Aberdeen (I think).

The Alexander Chalmers from Aberdeen was a writer and published novels, I do not think it is the same one that died in Poland was was buried at St Johns,here is a link

homepage.ntlworld.com/josephd.ross/index.html]
David_18 68 | 982
24 Aug 2010  #23
Sounds interesting - any links ?

Yea you can find everything in here :)

homepage.ntlworld.com/josephd.ross/index.html

In the second half of the sixteenth and in the seventeenth century many Scots entered military service in Poland, as mercenaries. Indeed there was scarcely a country in Europe which did not have Scots in its army. There is some information on the number of Scottish immigrants in Poland, in the accounts of Scottish travelers in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The most important, and probably most impartial, is the relation of William Lithgow, from Lanarkshire, who for nineteen years travelled in distant countries and stayed for some time in Poland, at the beginning of the seventeenth century.

In his memoir, often reprinted, he writes as follows:

Being arrived in Krakow ... the capital city of Poland I met with diverse Scottish merchants, who were wonderful glad of mine arrival there, especially the two brothers Dicksons, men of singular note of honesty and wealth.... Here (at Lublin) I found abundance of gallant, rich merchants, my countrymen, who were all very kind to me and so were they by the way in every place where I came, the conclusion being ever sealed with deep droughts, and God be with you. Then he calls Poland 'populous of strangers' and continues: And for auspiciousness, I may rather term it to be a mother and nurse for the youth and young lings of Scotland who are yearly sent hither in great numbers, than a proper Dame for her own birth; in clothing, feeding, and enriching them with the fatness of her best things; besides thirty thousand Scots families, that live incorporate in her bowels. And certainly Poland may be termed in this kind to be the mother of our Commons and the first commencement of all our best merchants' wealth, or at least most part of them.
poland_
24 Aug 2010  #24
I read the article earlier today, I thought it was very interesting how some of the Scottish names evolved into Polish names. for example lawson to Lason.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
24 Aug 2010  #25
Sounds interesting - any links ?

electricscotland.com/history/poland/scotsndx.htm

(the other books on Scots in Germany and Prussia also have info about Scots in Poland)

The Alexander Chalmers from Aberdeen was a writer and published novels, I do not think it is the same one that died in Poland was was buried at St Johns

You might well be right. I seem to recall reading he was from Aberdeen(shire) or I might just be mixing it up with the fact a lot of Scots came from Aberdeen to Poland.

Here's a couple of links which might be of interest.

news.scotsman.com/scotland/Scotland39s-Poles-split-over-plan.4840614.jp
facebook.com/?ref=home#!/photo.php?pid=1636105&id=717608495&ref=fbx_album
electricscotland.com/history/poland/appendix2.htm
sikorskipolishclub.org.uk/connections.htm
warsaw-life.com/news/news/1228-Warsaw's_Scottish_Mayor_Remembered
bpcc.org.pl/en/images/stories/file/contact_86_OnLine.pdf
poland_
24 Aug 2010  #26
Here's a couple of links which might be of interest.

I went through them briefly and read your article. How good is your Polish Trevek?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
24 Aug 2010  #27
or I might just be mixing it up with the fact a lot of Scots came from Aberdeen to Poland.

Cheers for those links- and yes, I'm another one in a long line of Aberdonians who came here :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 Aug 2010  #28
Yeah, their influence is acutely felt in Kraków and Poznań. We taught them their ways :)
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
25 Aug 2010  #29
I sense Seanus pride

You been drinking Polish Wódka? ;)
MIPK - | 69
25 Aug 2010  #30
the fact a lot of Scots came from Aberdeen to Poland.

yes, I'm another one in a long line of Aberdonians who came here :)

me too, so i guess times don't change that much! :)


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