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Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage...


Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #211
When I mentioned Ukrainian scientists and discoverers you even didn't grant me your reply which would have been necessary after ruthless claims of yours.

The problem is that the people you mentioned are either people who stole, fabricated their finds, their finds are of little international importance and no one knows these people outside of Ukraine.

One guy you mentioned actually made up an immortality potion to get money from Stalin and you used him as an example of ukrainian scientific achievements!

You do see how pathetic you look dont you?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
26 Dec 2010 #212
The problem is that the people you mentioned are either people who stole, fabricated their finds, their finds are of little international importance and no one knows these people outside of Ukraine.

And what has Poland done since 1990? Nothing.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #213
You're an anti polish retard mate luckily being an idiot that you're you're easy to rebuke, no country in Europe has produced a noteworthy scientist or an author since 1990, it takes generations for such people to gain fame.

Then again Poland had quite a few world famous people in the last 50 years too, John Paul II, Wałęsa... What famous people did Ukraine have in the past 500 years? Lets be generous what famous people did Ukraine have in the past 1000 years?

There's two famous ukrainians, one was a writer who considered himself a Russian and the other was a military commander who was in all probability an ethnic Pole, thats some heritage that Ukraine has eh?

Did i mention that both ukrainians achieved only regional fame? One being a russian writer is known in Russia, the other being the only ukrainian in history to win against Poland (out of a lot who tried) is known in Poland, none of them are world famous.

Ukraine is a cultural and scientific nothing.

It took Poles and Russians to build cities, harsh truth is without the so called polish "occupation" Ukraine would still be a rural region without any civilisation.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #214
I'd say Hugh Pennington is a noteworthy scientist, Sok. Look him up.

I'd proffer Shevchenko and Rebrov ;) ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #215
No Sean, we both know you'd have to research them hard and long, the kind of famous postcards of national heritage that we're looking at here are people like Borgia, Galileo, Barbarossa, Kopernik, John Paul II, Napoleon, Daguerre etc.

People who either achieve european wide fame or hugely contributed to worldwide development, Ukraine has none, its sciences are a crawling newborn, its culture was dead when Poland took over 600 years ago and never got up.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #216
Maybe they don't place such a high value on such things, Sok. I also don't know any high-profile Ukrainians in scientific circles but maybe they would put more on the table were they to be drafted into the EU (to a lesser extent, NATO). Their culture is as it is and we can describe it as different. They don't seem to excel in that dept for sure but maybe their lack of resources has played a part in that.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
26 Dec 2010 #217
No Sean, we both know you'd have to research them hard and long, the kind of famous postcards of national heritage that we're looking at here are people like Borgia, Galileo, Barbarossa, Kopernik, John Paul II, Napoleon, Daguerre etc.

Why are you naming a bunch of long-dead people?

Shevchenko and Ivan Franko are every bit as famous as Mickiewicz, for instance.

Anyway, perhaps a little look at history will show you how the Ukrainians were...em..'encouraged' not to develop through some rather interesting policies. The Poles certainly didn't allow Ukrainian universities!
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #218
Maybe they don't place such a high value on such things, Sok.

Ever read an ukrainian history book? They hijack everything they can from anyone they can so obviouly they do, Nathan himself went as far as to edit wikipedia to fit his version of events, ukrainians are obsessed with them being the underachiever of Europe.

I also don't know any high-profile Ukrainians in scientific circles but maybe they would put more on the table were they to be drafted into the EU (to a lesser extent, NATO).

There's none, before 1945 there was no ukrainian science or culture at all and after 1945 they've not been the busiest of beavers on those fields.

Incidentally the only XX century ukrainian with any brains, Petlura got completely ignored by his countrymen, this is the direct reason why they're the total nobody of Europe today.

heir culture is as it is and we can describe it as different.

No literature, no sciences, no art, yeah you could call it different.

maybe their lack of resources has played a part in that.

The only resource Scotland has is skirts yet it managed to get quite a few achievements in all fields including military, why Ukraine did not?

Shevchenko and Ivan Franko are every bit as famous as Mickiewicz, for instance.

Thats some sort of a joke right?

you how the Ukrainians were...em..'encouraged' not to develop

So were Poles, Poland was hindered in its development yet the responce was guess what? Even more rapid development! Why didnt Ukraine perform as well?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
26 Dec 2010 #219
Thats some sort of a joke right?

To anyone cultured who doesn't think POLSKA POLSKA NASZA POLSKA POLSKA constantly, they're about as well known as each other. Perhaps Shevchenko is better known than Franko, but certainly - Mickiewicz and Shevchenko are equals.

Then again, I don't suppose you've actually read anything by any of those authors.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #220
Then do them for plagiarism or breach of patent, Sok ;) ;)

My impression of Ukraine, of course based on virtually no experience, is that they value subsistence in that they provide for their own. They are like Polish farmers of long ago in that respect. Vodka shots in the morning and off to tend the fields :) Forgive my ignorance but I've never been there.

Different indeed :)

Eh, oil&gas capital of Europe (Aberdeen). The SAS. Tidal power leader in Europe (35%). Major industrial powerhouse in many areas for centuries (name an industry, Sok). Many of the world's leading inventors. STEEPED in culture of our own. Scotland is SOOO insignificant I see ;) ;) ;) Perhaps because Ukraine isn't as rich as Scotland or that we beat them to it ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #221
Shevchenko? The freed peasant turned poet who had to learn how to write before he got to writing his rather odd little poems? Nope sorry he's not widely known.

On the other hand Mickiewicz is read in Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and is fairly widely known in US and France so no they're far faaar from equals:)))

My impression of Ukraine, of course based on virtually no experience, is that they value subsistence in that they provide for their own. They are like Polish farmers of long ago in that respect. Vodka shots in the morning and off to tend the fields :) Forgive my ignorance but I've never been there.

Try it, Ukraine is beatifull but dangeous, think Mexico of Europe, absolute lawlesness, extreme poverty but if you're in a larger group and keep your $ by you you'll be OK.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #222
How about Andrzej Shevchenko then? ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #224
Yeah, he is known internationally and sport is part of culture :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #225
TBH i had to google him but i aint into football so i'll give you that :D
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #226
He was one of the most prolific strikers in Europe. He went off the boil but is still a symbol of Ukrainian sport.

However, they don't appear to have anyone like Czesław Miłosz, Szymborska or Lem.
PennBoy 76 | 2,432
26 Dec 2010 #227
Lem

That guy had an IQ of 180 wow
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #228
So did Madonna and Sharon Stone, LOL. Amazing what money can buy ;0 ;)

I'd love to see Mensa's coffers :)

I'd like to read some Lem. Despite having been able to read Polish well for at least 3 years, I dare say that I wouldn't understand the context or some of the words he uses. The same goes for some Poles so I don't mind.
PennBoy 76 | 2,432
26 Dec 2010 #229
So did Madonna and Sharon Stone, LOL. Amazing what money can buy ;0 ;)

So i'm guessing you don't think it was real? LOL I'm pretty sure Lem's was though.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #230
Well, I'm a sceptic/cynic when it comes to such tests. Cultural and societal knowledge is a forte of Poles and has been so for some time. They are so keen to discuss what you know but it is based on observation and experience more than raw IQ. That is for another thread but I prefer to see Polish writers as having been/being highly informed and driven also by heart. They keep the flame of the Polish psyche alive in their own way.
isthatu2 4 | 2,694
26 Dec 2010 #231
One guy you mentioned actually made up an immortality potion to get money from Stalin and you used him as an example of ukrainian scientific achievements!

. yeah,but kudos for hustling uncle joe out of a few rubles eh? :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #232
Kudos for having guts to make stuff up to Stalin the guy lied to f*cking Joseph Stalin about being able to make him immortal.
isthatu2 4 | 2,694
26 Dec 2010 #233
er,yes,and,your confusion arises from what?The guy was a hustler,his mark was Uncle Joe...even the sharpest griffter from Praga would tip his hat to that matey.
Nathan 18 | 1,349
26 Dec 2010 #234
However, they don't appear to have anyone like Czesław Miłosz, Szymborska or Lem.

Their culture is as it is and we can describe it as different. They don't seem to excel in that dept for sure but maybe their lack of resources has played a part in that.

Maybe they don't place such a high value on such things, Sok

My impression of Ukraine, of course based on virtually no experience, is that they value subsistence in that they provide for their own

You know, Seanus, if Sokrates said this I wouldn't be surprised, but you a graduate of a British university (if I am not mistaken) to make statements like these just brings shame to the name of the school where you wasted your time and money. A simple basis to make judgement only upon careful observing and learning of the subject which is a part of any respected establishment seems to have passed you by unharmed. No wonder you moved to Poland.

Czesław Miłosz, Szymborska or Lem are great writers and poets. Well-known, no doubt about that. I've read in Polish works by Szymborska and Lem. The latter is one of my favorite sci-fi writers. Since I speak and read both Ukrainian and Polish I might make a judgement on these people as compared to you, Seanus and Sokrates, who have never picked a book from a "black hole" as Ironside so graciously mentioned. I've read Mickiewicz and without any revange I have to acknowledge that he is far, far away from the level of Taras Shevchenko's literary works. Mickiewicz lacks much of ideas, spirit and poetic power that are overfilling Shevchenko's masterpieces. Pan Tadeusz is romantic poetry for someone who likes "Gone with The Wind" type of stories - dresses, feathers and love letters. It has no passion, rebellion, fight for freedom, life of regular people, ideals and harsh criticism which you will find "Kobzar".

Szymborska - is a great poetess. Love many of her poems. Ukrainian poetess Lina Kostenko is of equal greatness and I highly recommend her when "your impression of Ukraine, of course based on virtually no experience" hopefully change by finally picking something to read before making highschool statement.

Ukrainian scientists of the last century you might be interested to look at besides those that I already mentioned:
Chemists: Ivan Horbachevsky, Konstantin Efetov, Volodymyr Vernadsky;
Physicians: Konstantin Buteyko, Ivan Mavrov, Genadij Mavrov;
Physicist - George Zaslavsky, Vadym Adamyan, George Rainich, Aleksander Davydov, George Kistiakowsky (in Manhattan Project, btw), A. Smakula (anti-reflective lens coating), E. Chekaliuk ("Chekaliuk petroleum") and many many others you might find if you care to use internet just a bit, Seanus. Do they do any research projects in Scotland? Or it is just that drop-outs never know what it is? Check out these if you are interested to know about recent cool discoveries made in Ukraine despite lack of funds, salary, etc.:

en.for-ua.com/news/2010/10/04/110246.html
physorg.com/news64.html
Your statements, Seanus: "They (Ukrainians) don't appear to have anyone..." and "my impression of Ukraine, of course based on virtually no experience" and "Despite having been able to read Polish well for at least 3 years, I dare say that I wouldn't understand the context or some of the words he uses. The same goes for some Poles so I don't mind."

I feel sorry and pity for you. You can't read simple writing of Lem after this much time banging Polish chick in her country and at the same time you manage to express denigrating opinions on Ukrainian scientists or literature which you have never seen, forget read, in your life? You are funny and a sheep indeed.

er,yes,and,your confusion arises from what?The guy was a hustler,his mark was Uncle Joe...even the sharpest griffter from Praga would tip his hat to that matey.

:))))
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #235
A law graduate of 2 Scottish universities, yes :)

As I said, they were just impressions. Lem wrote in different times and for audiences not such as I. However, I don't know until I try.

What denigrating opinions? I was just saying that I don't know, in common knowledge terms, of prominent Ukrainians. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Do any of them write in English, Nate? I can't read cyrillic.
isthatu2 4 | 2,694
26 Dec 2010 #236
Nathen,in the UK,certainly around the times seunas and myself were in school the only mention Ukraine would get would be something like " In 1941 the germans invaded the soviet union,at first,in the ukraine they were greeted as liberators....."and frankly,for the last 300 years thats about all the Ukraine has been known for somewhere between russia and the west,a bit like Poland.

But hey,Nathen,tells us,without google,what you know about Wales?
Nathan 18 | 1,349
26 Dec 2010 #237
A law graduate of 2 Scottish universities, yes :)

Law? What in hell where you doing there? Banging dollies? ;) Come on, Sean :)

I was just saying

I know what you said. I don't need 2 universities for that.

Do any of them write in English, Nate? I can't read cyrillic.

Did Lem write in English? There are people who make translations, Seanus. And yes, many of them are in English.

But hey,Nathen,tells us,without google,what you know about Wales?

Wales is a one of the parts of the Great Britain located on the south-west angle of the British island. Borders England on the east and Scotland on the north. The king of Britain has to be a prince of Wales to become a king (if I am not mistaken). Wales has a port Cardiff which is the capital. Anthony Hopkins is from Wales. It is a beautiful, green, grassy country with lots of sheeps. It has coal. It has Ireland across a straight. Welsh is a very unique language. It is washed by La Manche on the south. I knew a famous writer from Wales but I forgot his name. It is mostly plain, hillocky state. I might recall more if I have more time (I am editing and I got only 15 minutes)

Again, if I wanted to put my opinion on Welsh literature or scientists I would first made a research and would never offend Welsh by my ignorance like a 2 Universities graduate does.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #238
I was working towards my LLM, Nate. I got it comfortably too :)

Lem was Polish so he didn't use cyrillic alphabet. I meant those Ukrainian writers.

You clearly misread my words ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
26 Dec 2010 #239
What denigrating opinions? I was just saying that I don't know, in common knowledge terms, of prominent Ukrainians. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.

In this case it does, i dont know of any either and i'm actually interested in ukrainian history.
Nathan 18 | 1,349
26 Dec 2010 #240
Do any of them write in English, Nate?

And yes, many of them are in English

You clearly misread my words ;)

I don't think so.


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