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Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage...


Seanus 15 | 19668  
26 Dec 2010 /  #241
Good to see that you know my intentions better than I do, Nate ;) ;)

I'd never heard of them at all. Please don't hold it against me :)
Nathan 18 | 1349  
26 Dec 2010 /  #242
I'd never heard of them at all. Please don't hold it against me :)

Seanus, I don't care if you know them or not. It is your business. I don't know many of the people mentioned myself, even those the rest of the world seems to know. But for an educated person as you claim to be it is not nice to say the following and then ask if I can provide you with info on whether you can find the people in English. You are just disrespectful, nothing else.

They don't seem to excel in that dept for sure

They are like Polish farmers of long ago in that respect. Vodka shots in the morning and off to tend the fields :)

Seanus 15 | 19668  
26 Dec 2010 /  #243
They don't seem to excel in that they don't figure amongst the most prominent figures but we all know that there are hidden gems. It's subjective anyway. Many Poles don't like Mickiewicz for being dry but he has a statue here in this city.

It's just my impression so forgive my ignorance. Sok declares things, posits and debates. Me? I just have mental pictures of Ukraine but as I said, I have virtually no contact with anything Ukrainian.

I meant no offence at all. I really do believe in Bob Dylan's comment 'Don't criticise what you can't understand'. Here, peace,

youtube.com/watch?v=gwAoJ88Kg5I
Sokrates 8 | 3335  
26 Dec 2010 /  #244
Nathan whats wrong about Seanus' statements, Ukrainians for all intents and purposes lead very simple lives, especially in the country.
Velund 1 | 488  
26 Dec 2010 /  #245
What does Russia have from Kievan Rus'? The second half of its glorious name? Kievan Rus was always associated with Kiev, not some boggy village Moscow built by Mongols in 13th century.

Hm... Looks like you're been there to watch how nomads suddenly changed their mind and started to build a city. ;)

Russian history is a story of destruction, not creation.

Yes. We are destructive enough to be able to put first satellite and first man in space (yes, after looking on some samples of German technology that somewhat speed up research, but USA got same samples together with author of that design and they was late with their first launches until they put all resources to Moon race - to make something that they will be unable to repeat in nearest years). China (modern industrial superpower) is just starting to make modernized replicas of our past designs. ;) They also managed to make their own fighter jets based on our past designs but still not learned how to make reliable turbines for heavily loaded jet engines.

And yes, our army twice visited Berlin and once Paris in the past. But look at preceeding history. Was there other choice for us?

This is what you are and not a bit of Kievan Rus in your veins. Your roots are in Mongolia.

At least half of blood in my own veins is Ukrainian. But I have no problems with self-determination. And I really don't like western-ukrainian peasants that trying to cause as many harm as possible to Slavic world, trying to divide it into powerless pieces. Just to make one more failed state where their local dialect is declared state language.

«Могущество России может быть подорвано только отделением от неё Украины… необходимо не только оторвать, но и противопоставить Украину России, стравить две части единого народа и наблюдать, как брат будет убивать брата. Для этого нужно только найти и взрастить предателей среди национальной элиты и с их помощью изменить самосознание одной части великого народа до такой степени, что он будет ненавидеть всё русское, ненавидеть свой род, не осознавая этого. Всё остальное — дело времени». ОТТО ФОН БИСМАРК
Borrka 37 | 592  
26 Dec 2010 /  #246
Frankly, I do hate this kind of discussions !
Just google for Gogol, Koroliov, (Igor) Sikorski, Orlik, Ciolkovski ect.etc. and you will find it pretty hard to determine their ethnicity - Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish, even Tatar.

Depending on which Wiki language you prefer:).
Jewish scientists turning overnight to Russians, Poles or .... Americans, Poles becoming all of the sudden French or Lithuanian, Ukrainians ... Russian or vice versa, Tesla well known Croatian scientists ...

I'm fed up.
Nathan 18 | 1349  
26 Dec 2010 /  #247
Bob Dylan's comment 'Don't criticise what you can't understand'.

I say: "Don't criticize what you CAN understand by don't feel like learning and instead prefer to sh*t at like a dirty sl*t". I hope, Seanus, my saying beats Bob Dylan's when applied to your case.

Me? I just have mental pictures of Ukraine but as I said, I have virtually no contact with anything Ukrainian.

Exactly, if you have no idea than why not use toilet instead of PF. Sokrates releases his diarrhea here like a dirty monkey he is, but you, a double law graduate - not nice...
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
26 Dec 2010 /  #248
I'm fed up.

aye,give up,'cos everyone knows anything of note was invented by a Scotsman anyway....;)
Nathen,why when someone gives you the honest facts of what they know,or think they know, of the ukraine,and none of them insults,do you find it so hard to see what they are saying is not an attack?

I asked earlier what you knew of the country Wales ,you clearly know nothing about it but a Welshman would not be offended by that.
Seanus 15 | 19668  
26 Dec 2010 /  #249
The toilet doesn't speak to me, you do ;)

I see the anthem didn't do it for you ;)

I'll read up on some stuff you recommended.

Isthatu2 joining in with some truth :) :)
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
26 Dec 2010 /  #250
Isthatu2 joining in with some truth :) :)

or an irishman lol
Nathan 18 | 1349  
26 Dec 2010 /  #251
everyone knows anything of note was invented by a Scotsman anyway

I agree.

Hm...

I don't even feel like to start.

We are destructive enough to be able to put first satellite and first man in space

We, you mean, 15 republics who were naked, hungry, destroyed and in GULAGS, eating grass and bark and building and working for nothing just to put a fcuking rocket in space? Yes, Americans did it later, because they didn't turn their people in animals. Americans didn't stay in line-ups at 4 am to get a liter of milk or a chunk of bread. They put money into a better dentist machines, field tools, tractors, cars, medicine and the fcuking rocket you are so proud of costed lives of millions. Recall the stores you bought your food in - what was it like - an American barn at best.
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
26 Dec 2010 /  #252
jets

Jet engines,invented by Frank whittle,a briton,who gave the design to our wartime allies the US and USSR
Aeroplane
a thing invented by a couple of Americans....
Sorry Velund,Im a total Russophile and get it in the neck on here for that but......

Americans didn't stay in line-ups at 4 am to get a liter of milk or a chunk of bread. They put money into a better dentist machines, field tools, tractors, cars, medicine

er,thats fine if you were a white anglo protestant american mate, would rather have been a Russian than an American black guy in the 60s(baring Jimi hedrix as he seemed to have a great old time....once he left america and came to the UK lol)
Sokrates 8 | 3335  
26 Dec 2010 /  #253
fcuking rocket you are so proud of costed lives of millions.

Billions! Recent research shows that to build a single screw in a russian rocket 20 milion people were killed!!!

Jesus dude... You're just bitter because your country is a bunch of poor farmers.
Velund 1 | 488  
26 Dec 2010 /  #254
We, you mean, 15 republics who were naked, hungry, destroyed and in GULAGS, eating grass and bark and building and working for nothing just to put a fcuking rocket in space?

Rocket in space was a by-product of something else.

And wouldn't we also say "thank you" for a poor dressed and semi-hungry people to a German "carriers of civilization" that destroyed anything on their way when was pushed back to vaterland? Yes, americans was able to invest into better dentist machines, cars, etc... But can you show the place in US where a single german bomb was dropped during WWII? They lost some people in that war, but overall it was profitable for America, in a long term.
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
26 Dec 2010 /  #255
But can you show the place in US where a single german bomb was dropped during WWII? They lost some people in that war, but overall it was profitable for America, in a long term.

I can show you a place where a single Jap' bomb fell in the US,it killed some school kids and there teacher...... What he is also not pointing out is the fact that there was full employment and medical coverage in the CCCP where as in the US even now thousands are homeless and millions go without propar health care....so a bit like todays russia really.

[mod]back on topic, or to the bin[/mod]
sorry,forgot freedom of speach is one of those american myths like bigfoot and the jersey devil :)
What was the topic????
Velund 1 | 488  
26 Dec 2010 /  #256
Jet engines,invented by Frank whittle,a briton,who gave the design to our wartime allies the US and USSR
Aeroplane
a thing invented by a couple of Americans....
Sorry Velund,Im a total Russophile and get it in the neck on here for that but......

Well, try to google for Alexander Mozhaisky name and GIRD abbreviation, just for start. You may find something new for yourself, if you think that nobody worked on the similar things here.

Just to save you some time...

mentallandscape.com/S_GIRD.htm
Nathan 18 | 1349  
26 Dec 2010 /  #257
German "carriers of civilization"

Look at them now. And look at Russian "civilization" - it destroyed millions of lives over the years when Germany and other countries were progressing not on the bones of innocent people, but science and human prosperity.

But can you show the place in US where a single german bomb was dropped during WWII?

I can show you Berlin or Hiroshima in 1945. They were anihilated almost to the ground. What about Russia? Besides a few close to Ukraine and Belorus cities Russia was unharmed. Somehow it didn't help Russia and the whole SU in general to become anything even remotedly close to what people live in Germany and Japan.
Velund 1 | 488  
26 Dec 2010 /  #258
it destroyed millions of lives over the years when Germany and other countries were progressing not on the bones of innocent people, but science and human prosperity.

Eh... Poles still have some memorials of German science and human prosperity on their territory. And not only Poles...

Jedem das Seine
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
26 Dec 2010 /  #259
velund,rocketry and jet engines are totally different things Im afraid,but i take your point,its the same with Radar,we got there first and used it most effectivly but plenty other countries were trying to develope similar......Im sure people in west ukraine were also working on stuff...
Velund 1 | 488  
26 Dec 2010 /  #260
Besides a few close to Ukraine and Belorus cities Russia was unharmed.

Was Stalingrad so close to Ukraine? And why USSR was forced to create new industrial core on Ural?
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
26 Dec 2010 /  #261
Nathan:
Besides a few close to Ukraine and Belorus cities Russia was unharmed.

Was Stalingrad so close to Ukraine? And why USSR was forced to create new industrial core on Ural?

er,900 odd days in Leningrad anyone?
Velund 1 | 488  
26 Dec 2010 /  #262
Im sure people in west ukraine were also working on stuff...

Do you mean extermination of Poles on Volyn in the past? Or building numerous Bandera and Shukhevich monuments in the present? ;)
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
27 Dec 2010 /  #263
no,I simply meant we were talking about stalingrad and leningrad and was attempting,without any effort to get on topic......jeez,lighten up tovarisch.
Nathan 18 | 1349  
27 Dec 2010 /  #264
Poles still have some memorials of German science and human prosperity on their territory

I bet they have prisons used to exterminate "enemies of the state" in which were murdered millions of people like we do in Ukraine built by rocket-building Soviet Union.

And why USSR was forced to create new industrial core on Ural?

Because it has ore and is far from the front.

Was Stalingrad so close to Ukraine?

It is 380 km from Luhansk.
Sokrates 8 | 3335  
27 Dec 2010 /  #265
I bet they have prisons used to exterminate "enemies of the state" in which were murdered millions of people like we do in Ukraine built by rocket-building Soviet Union.

Nathan the point is that Russians achieved something while Ukrainians did not.

Lets trace the history of rocketry, brought to Europe by Portugese, first used in combat by the Polish, perfected by Germans and then by Russians, where's Ukraine there?

The same with most achievements, we could place most countries in their chain of development but not Ukraine, Ukraine never built anything by itself so today all you're left with are attempts to hijack other peoples achievements.

Even the very cities you live in, Lwów built by Poles, Kijów built by Russians, where do you see large scale ukrainian urban projects?
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
27 Dec 2010 /  #266
first used in combat by the Polish

really? Source please.
Sokrates 8 | 3335  
27 Dec 2010 /  #267
Yes really, Poland was the leading country in artillery technology during late Medieval - early Reneissance period, the first pan-european artillery handbook was written by polish officers for the polish army.

Can you read polish?

If you can, Konstanty Górski is your man, i'll actully upload it on Chomikuj for you if you're into the subject.

To expand on the subject, Poles used primitive rocket launchers (similar to those used later by the Brits during the napoleonic wars) in their wars with Russia and Wallachia in the XVIth century.

Then the european (Poland included) interest in rocketry waned in favour of artillery, the next to pick up rockets were the Brits in early 1800s, Poland got back to rockets in 1810 but rocket artillery wouldnt get rolling untill Germany and Russia revived it via their multiple launchers.

None the less the combat use by Europeans started with Poles.
isthatu2 4 | 2692  
27 Dec 2010 /  #268
Cool,thanks for that.
Yep,you guessed it,I just went with the British in the French /Napoleonic wars....though not from jingoism as we nicked the idea from the Indians(i guess thats where the portugese picked it up too then?)
Ironside 50 | 12338  
27 Dec 2010 /  #269
Well, Ukrainian nationhood started in the XIX century! What was before is hardly Ukrainian!
Also, they have no impressive or less impressive achievements on any field really.
Ukrainian culture was a very basic one, nevertheless for a less sophisticated folks that could be quite attractive, songs and all!
Folklore of Ukraininn use to be a very attractive, something akin to the wild west tales and ballads, with the some ruffian, daring and atventuris streak, free spirit and all that :)

Naturally an Ruthenian educated peasant automatically become a Pole or Russian, then some of them discovered (somehow) that they are Ukrainians - and and an educated Ukrainian nationalist is embarrassed - no wonder he try to sell his nation as an ancient entity, rich in culture and history with plenty of great people !

Well, they could stick to the truth - that they are freshmen on the nationhood - that would be good for them !
Nathan 18 | 1349  
29 Dec 2010 /  #270
Lets trace the history of rocketry, brought to Europe by Portugese, first used in combat by the Polish, perfected by Germans and then by Russians, where's Ukraine there?

So, to be the 1st to use rocketry is an achievement of Poles? ;)))
Let me tell you the story which you try to depict here:
The Chinese invented powder and rockets. The Portuguese which were great explorers and sea travelers brought the rockets to Europe, on the Iberian peninsula. Then Portuguese king says: "I want to try these rockets against Spaniards". But the guys who brought the rockets say: "NOOOOOOO, God forbid. Poles are the first to try these". Then the rockets traveled across Spain, France, the Holy Roman empire. In each state it was prohibited to try the Chinese invention. Everyone waited for Polish expertise. Finally, the rockets arrived to Polish king. And he was happy to be 1st to shoot a rocket. Since then it was the greatest "believable" achievement ever with the only exception of a German astronomer Kopernikus, stolen to have something else to brag about ;)

Lwów built by Poles, Kijów built by Russians

Any link? ;) You have a big mouth, I wonder why ;)

then some of them discovered (somehow) that they are Ukrainians

Somehow? Hmmm... Are there any scientific theories of this discovery of yours? ;)

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