The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 389

Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage...


Plastic Pole52 - | 67
18 Sep 2010 #31
That worked out really well last time.

It did.They agreed to all Polish "proposals".
Nathan 18 | 1,363
18 Sep 2010 #32
Poles did it once in 1921 and I am sure we can take it back now ,we just need to grow some balls.

Stupid as always. Grow your balls, but this time they won`t be cut, but mined, warrior ;)

Bad when somebody tries to reshape history by (for example) removing Polish inscription from Vilnius University.

Why? Original name of Vilnius University was: ``Almae Academia et Universitas Vilnensis Societatis Jesu``. During occupation of the Lithuanian capital by Poland some Polish marshal decided to rename it and, moreover, in Polish!!! (outrageous!):

Marshall Józef Piłsudski reopened it as Stefan Batory University (Uniwersytet Stefana Batorego) on August 28, 1919. The Vilnius Region was subsequently annexed by Poland. In response to the dispute over the region, many Lithuanian scholars moved to Vytautas Magnus University in Kaunas, the interwar capital.[4]

I don`t see why occupational forces CAN rename the university, but people of the country CANNOT. It is called now ``Vilniaus Universitetas``, which is great.

P.S. Some great people studied there. Check it out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_University
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Sep 2010 #33
Nathan, most Poles I have talked to balk even at the mention of Lwów being Ukrainian. They criticise Russia for large-scale imperialism but don't acknowledge when they themselves partake in it. They still see it as a part of Poland.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
18 Sep 2010 #34
Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - we have lost enormoust part of our heritage...

It's sad, now maybe you start feeling for Germans too. Basically, all of you guys have lost something.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
18 Sep 2010 #35
I know, Seanus. Let them balk :))) You should definitly visit L`viv (Lwow - what???) on Euro 2012, Seanus, and I hope with your soccer team. Someone mentioned that Kryvonis (important Ukrainian historical figure) was a Scot and he was the one who led the Cossack army to liberate the city from Polish army in 1649. So you might find here some interesting stuff for yourself :)

Basically, all of you guys have lost something.

So true, but definitely not the heritage ;)
Borrka 37 | 594
18 Sep 2010 #36
During occupation of the Lithuanian capital by Poland

Good joke.
Polish "occupation" of Wilno having 60+% Polish "minority", 30+ % Jews and last but not least 1% Lithuanians.
BTW. Using these criteria and similar figures one can speak of Ukrainian occupation of Lviv today LOL.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
18 Sep 2010 #37
Polish "occupation" of Wilno having 60+% Polish "minority", 30+ % Jews and last but not least 1% Lithuanians.

Well, Borya, do you recall the policy the Polish government conducted in L`viv (and most part of western Ukraine), where Ukrainians could not get into universities, when Poles closed schools and burnt libraries. Many of Ukrainian present and future intelligensia moved to other European countries (most notably, Prague, with its Ukrainian Free University, which was transfered from Vienna and now is in Munchen) to continue their studies as Poles prevented them to do it at home. Once in the other country, established and settled, a few came back. All the high level administrative or scientific jobs as well as salary connected to them and enabling people to afford living in the city was barred for Ukrainians and no doubt Lithuanians who couldn`t get into universities and in addition studied in Polonized high schools. So, what a surprise about Polish presence in cities like L`viv and Vilnius! All the surrounding territories, even as far as Holm, Peremyshel and around Vilnius were settled from times unknown by Ukrainians and Lithuanians, respectively. Why Poles were not in the surrounding in all directions territories? Societies on the autochton lands are built starting from the countryside, villages, farms which supply in the future centers which become cities; otherwise, the existance of the latter is not possible. You cannot be looking into microscope for a bacteria before you grow something in the field to support your body and brain and collect the money to afford buying that microscope. Absence of Poles there shows immediately the nature of their presence on these territories even for someone who might not look further into books of history.

Using these criteria and similar figures one can speak of Ukrainian occupation of Lviv today LOL.

As you can see - one cannot :) LOL
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Sep 2010 #38
Lvov is how I would ordinarily write it so I'll stick with that :) Kryvonis? What was his Scottish name? Most of our fighting history is focussed in on the English but I wasn't aware that we had our liberators abroad too.
nott 3 | 594
18 Sep 2010 #39
Well, Nathan, Lwow and Wilno had a crushing Polish majority in 1920, after about 150 years of no Polish government at all.

I'd be grateful for links about banning Ukrainians from universities and burning libraries. Non-ukrainian links, rather.
Borrka 37 | 594
18 Sep 2010 #40
All the surrounding territories, even as far as Holm, Peremyshel and around Vilnius were settled from times unknown by Ukrainians and Lithuanians,

Wrong again my friend.
Let us discuss Vilnius-area only and look at the pre-war minorities structure of "Polish" Lithuania:
angelfire.com/de/lubartow/Pommern.html

Truth hurts.
smigly wilno
18 Sep 2010 #41
My angst is not toward the people that live on the land of my father now. It is not their fault they were "given" the opportunity to own the land. My anger is toward Stalin and the policies of Stalin and how the ideas of a mad-man resulted in so much destruction of the ethnic world of eastern Europe. By his direction, many people suffered. By his orders, many people were torn from their homes. By his Soviet machine, people died and were killed, and not just in fighting the enemies of "mother russsia".

It is one thing to be Proud of your heritage. It is totally different when you are so "proud" that you are anger with people that had nothing to do with where you find yourself today. I am furious at Stalin and the NKVD because my father, and so many like him, was made to suffer in Siberia. I am not anger at the residents who live in Komi, Russia today.

Remember: Freedom is a wonderful thing. But, your freedom ends when it causes harm to someone else.
pawian 200 | 21,528
18 Sep 2010 #42
My angst is not toward the people that live on the land of my father now. It is not their fault they were "given" the opportunity to own the land

What the heck.

Poland lost its Eastern territories which had been settled by Poles for a few centuries.

Poland gained Western territories which had been settled by Germans for a few centuries.

There is a balance in nature. Heritage lost, heritage regained.

Now a question: your post suggests that you probably wish Easter Land was Polish again. If it happened, would you agree to give back Western Land to Germans?

Or you prefer this?:

The topic was already discussed here: Poland and Ukraine - page 4
nott 3 | 594
18 Sep 2010 #43
There is a balance in nature. Heritage lost, heritage regained.

People died, people died. This wasn't a zero-sum game. Much of the heritage went up with smoke as well.
pawian 200 | 21,528
18 Sep 2010 #44
Well, it happens. Poles made a mistake by their alliance with Lithuanians in the past and later had to pay the terrible price.....
nott 3 | 594
18 Sep 2010 #45
It was a good move for the times. The mistake was Poles let Jagiello to save the Teutons. He was the king, though.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
19 Sep 2010 #46
I was kidding, Seanus :) Any Scot who reached these lands was executed immediately ;)
Regarding L'viv, me too: I write Edinbref and I will stick to it.

Wrong

Thank you for article, but I don't see what were you pointing at. There is mentioned German civilians' expulsion from Poland in 1945 and 300 times mentioned "regaining historically Polish territories". What did you want me to read?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland
nott 3 | 594
19 Sep 2010 #47
The Poles suppressed the Ukrainian educational system,

*sigh* and I asked for it myself... never trust Ukrainians, never...

Obliged, what can I do now. However, this doesn't change the fact that Lwow and the region were Polish for ages.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
19 Sep 2010 #48
Not that I give a dime for your mottos of life, but would you be so kind to explain what exactly you said or, rather, meant above?

Well, Nathan, Lwow and Wilno had a crushing Polish majority in 1920

And also if you could explain Polish meaning to the word "crushing" as well as provide the material where I would learn more about that amount in numbers (following your suit, be kind to provide nothing of polish source) :)
Bzibzioh
19 Sep 2010 #49
I'd be grateful for links about banning Ukrainians from universities and burning libraries. Non-ukrainian links, rather.

Live and learn: never ask Nathan for links. He will present you with wiki pages which he previously edited himself to nicely fit his needs. He will engage you in a long pointless dispute and when he's outgunned with not-wiki sources, he will go strait to name-calling. In short: waste of time and energy. You can check Nathan-Porzeczka discussion in thread about "burned" Ukrainian churches started by another PF Ukrainian "totally-not-biased" aphrodisiac.
pawian 200 | 21,528
19 Sep 2010 #50
Obliged, what can I do now. However, this doesn't change the fact that Lwow and the region were Polish for ages.

I wonder if the English also gather, sigh and ponder in their forums : Oh, my God, we have lost such enormous part of our heritage in India and Pakistan. I hate that rascal, Gandhi. :):):):)
plk123 8 | 4,148
19 Sep 2010 #51
Nathan, most Poles I have talked to balk even at the mention of Lwów being Ukrainian. They criticise Russia for large-scale imperialism but don't acknowledge when they themselves partake in it. They still see it as a part of Poland.

that's because it was polish for a long long time.. not just interwar..

Absence of Poles there shows immediately the nature of their presence on these territories

that's aft4er upa arses killed a huge amount of poles..

Or you prefer this?:

and what's wrong with that?

(following your suit, be kind to provide nothing of polish source)

there is a german one above here.
Borrka 37 | 594
19 Sep 2010 #52
I don't see what were you pointing at.

The site makes collection of different links and among them you can find a map with distribution of nationalities in "Polish" prewar Lithuania.

Sorry but if I post link to the map only, you will not be able to see it (only information from Angelfire admin).

BTW. Some German links there are quite interesting but rather off topic.
nott 3 | 594
19 Sep 2010 #53
nott: *sigh* and I asked for it myself... never trust Ukrainians, never...
Obliged, what can I do now.

Not that I give a dime for your mottos of life, but would you be so kind to explain what exactly you said or, rather, meant above?

Chill down. It meant that you should've lied down and rolled over, now you are barking back with facts. Cheek-in-tongue admittance of defeat.

Now the meaning has changed, however. It was late in the night, I only skimmed your quotation. Now I can see something like that:

In the middle schools in Volhynia only 344 (14%) Ukrainians were enrolled in comparison to 2599 Poles (1938).[verification needed]

Three sentences further on there is:

In the 1936/37 academic year only 344 Ukrainians (13.3%)in comparison to 2599 Poles were enrolled in middle school.

Suspicion arises, there's something not quite right here. Like, not all the facts are exactly what they seem at first glance.

Furthermore, your quotation starts with:

The Poles suppressed the Ukrainian educational system, reducing the number of Ukrainian-language schools from 440 to 8.

In the article, 3 paragraphs higher, there is this:

The law (...) resulted in a rapid decline in the number of uni-lingual Ukrainian schools (from 2,426 in 1922 to 352 in 1938 in Galicia; and from 443 in 1922 to 8 in 1938 in Volhynia)

The article was obviously very hastily edited, not to say tampered with. Or, maybe, Ukraine means Volhynia only, and Galicia is more like Poland.

Given that, and Bzibzioh's warning, I am not really interested which of the options you choose to defend. And the meaning of my motto takes on a more literal flavour, as mentioned.

Pity, really. Years ago I was participating in a PLUA mailing list, where Ukrainians and Poles disputed the issues of today's Western Ukraine. Sometimes hotly, but tricks like that were pulverised by both sides immediately, regardless of who would benefit from them. The result was astounding. People came there to whine about atrocities, and stayed to learn the other language, so they could know more and more about the other fascinating nation. Sometimes it seemed they are going to declare independent PLUA republic, and leave all them Polish and Ukrainian morons to themselves.

Take care.

Edit:

from the same article:

According to statistics for the year 1937, 3,516 Ukrainian co-operative unions existed with a total of 661 thousand members. 120 Ukrainian periodicals were published in the 30s.[19] There were nine legal Ukrainian and Ruthenian parties, reflecting the full range of political opinion.[20] The vibrant political life and the varieties of representation within the Ukrainian political spectrum, was a development that became possible due to the tolerant policies (as compared to the Soviet Ukraine) of the interwar Poland.[21] During the first decade of Polish rule, electrification and telephone service were introduced to all important towns, the proportion of children attending to schools raised from 15% to 70% in Volhynia alone,[22] and the illiteracy rate in Ukrainian territories fell from 50 percent to 35 percent. By 1938, the number of elementary schools in Volhynia and Polessia increased over three times to 3,100, and from 4,030 to 4,998 in Galicia [23] Polish policy also gave rise to the first generation of educated Volhynian Ukrainians.[24]

repeat:

the proportion of children attending to schools raised from 15% to 70% in Volhynia alone

So maybe the low admittance of Ukrainians from Volhynia into universities stems from something different than Polish brutal suppression of Ukrainian education system. Like from lack of the said system in pre-independent Poland.

Happy barking, Nathan.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
19 Sep 2010 #54
The site makes collection of different links and among them you can find a map with distribution of nationalities in "Polish" prewar Lithuania.

Thanks, Borrka, I'll check it again - it is my slow-loading internet service that was, probably, the problem.

Chill down. It meant that you should've lied down and rolled over, now you are barking back with facts.

I don't see why do you have to call barking my quotation from Wikipedia or the fact that I asked you to explain what you meant. I am cool like never :) I also have to admit that I have no time to check all the sources quoted in the paragraph I provided, since these exactly are not online. Nevertheless, opinions of people like Hrushevsky, the 1st president of Ukraine and renowned historian as well as the metropolitan Andrij Sheptyckij may be of help:

"the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be considered the cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness".[6]

by Hrushevskij - here is the book:
books.google.com/books?id=RG9dXs3-zQEC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&ots=8yHIT2KiZa&sig=DuYrgumIK7dCeC4NlfsEyj7hoKQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Metropolitan Sheptytsky's prestige was enhanced in 1938 when he condemned the Polish government's persecution of Orthodox believers and destruction of Orthodox churches in the Kholm region and Volhynia.

encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/S/H/SheptytskyAndrei.htm

Sheptytsky was also a patron of artists, students, including many Orthodox Christians, and a pioneer of ecumenism - he also opposed the Second Polish Republic policy of forced conversion of Polish Ukrainians into Latin Rite Catholics[3].

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Sheptytsky

In Europe it was once common to convert whole peoples, by main force, from one Christian faith to another, on the historic principle of Cuius regio, eius religio ("whose rule, his religion"). Long in disuse, this principle was last week once again being honored in eastern Europe. The rule was Poland's, the religion, Roman Catholicism. Or so it was loudly and plausibly charged by those who were undergoing the "conversion"-7,000,000 Ukrainians in southeastern Poland.
Trying to make themselves heard above other clamorous minorities last week (see p. 21), Polish Ukrainians complained that their Orthodox churches, some of them extremely ancient, were being systematically pulled down or turned into Roman Catholic churches. Of 350 which existed in 1918, all but 50 have vanished or changed hands, most of them during the past year. Both Orthodox and Uniat faithful, the Ukrainians declared, have been forced to adopt Roman Catholicism.

They well know that the Polish Government wishes to crush Ukrainian nationalist tendencies, centred in the churches, and also to stir up religious bitterness among the Ukrainians. In the latter aim it has succeeded. In a pastoral, suppressed by the Government but circulated (in English) in London and Manhattan last week, Archbishop Sheptytsky admitted that the destruction of Ukrainian churches had "cast the odium for what has transpired on the Apostolic See....A new abyss is being opened between the Eastern and the Catholic Churches."

Read more:
time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,883791,00.html#ixzz0zyyhnugg
time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,883791,00.html
The above is from newspaper "Time" dating October 24, 1938.
In addition here are two historians, their books and pages where the souces of the materials I provided in the previous post and can be checked. The second book is even in Polish, so to really demolish my stance, you might check this one out and say that it was misquoted and the facts about Polish policies of forceful closing Ukrainian schools, burning libraries are something you were defending and contradicts my assertions.

^ Siwicki p.40
^ Mieczyslaw Iwanicki, Oswiata i szkolnictwo ukrainskie w Polsce w latach 1918-1939. praca habilatacyjna. Siedlce, 1975 s. 162
And another important thing: I asked you only for a single source regarding your barking about "crushing" Polish majority in L'viv area or just L'viv itself and you didn't manage to bark it out ;)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
19 Sep 2010 #55
about "burned" Ukrainian churches started by another PF Ukrainian "totally-not-biased" aphrodisiac.

not burned but destroyed. I got the info from the Polish source, not the Ukrainian one, so what is your beef. I is good to know that there are some Poles who actually have no problem with the facts when it comes to Polish-Ukrainian history. You are not one of them and the truth is that the Ukrainian churches were destroyed or taken over in 1938 by Poles as a part of the Polonisation process carried out by the Polish government. It is all there in writing for those who want to know.

You, on the other hand are a queen of personal remarks and have no concept of healthy discussion. Stop that smearing campaign. Your personal feeling have nothing to do with historical facts.

Given that, and Bzibzioh's warning, I am not really interested which of the options you choose to defend.

please think for yourself. Unless you are already biased.
nott 3 | 594
19 Sep 2010 #56
please think for yourself. Unless you are already biased.

Seems I am. I've read some Nathan's productions before.

I asked you only for a single source regarding your barking about "crushing" Polish majority in L'viv area or just L'viv itself and you didn't manage to bark it out ;)

I don't find much fun in barking, that's why. But yes, I left it hanging. Google for 1931 cenzus, or history of Lwow. I don;t care much if you don't.

And don't bother to convince me any more. I know about problems Ukrainians had before 1939, and I know that you should lick our hands anyway, because if Poland didn't take those lands in 1920, you'd be speaking Russian now, like the the other half.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
19 Sep 2010 #57
you'd be speaking Russian now

I think he speaks Russian regardless;), language skills are not an argument in the Polish Ukrainian discussion.

The fact is, I am happy that Poles are out of Ukraine.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
19 Sep 2010 #58
Or you prefer this?:

A fantasy map. Whose creation is that? LOL
Nathan 18 | 1,363
19 Sep 2010 #59
Your post #40 - before I asked you to present the source about the "crushing" Polish majority in L'viv:

Well, Nathan, Lwow and Wilno had a crushing Polish majority in 1920

Your post #57 - after I asked you to present the source about the "crushing" Polish majority in L'viv:

Google for 1931 cenzus

What happened? ;) Now we are in the 1931, not in 1920 anymore, where your "crushing" majority occurred? ;) and you even don't bother to provide the link ;))))

I know that you should lick our hands anyway

Many Poles told me that before and it makes me really happy :) Thank you.

And don't bother to convince me any more.

You asked, I gave. This is my last talk to you, anyhow.
andrei - | 25
19 Sep 2010 #60
I don't understand the big problem in here. Lwow/Lviv and Wilno/Vilnius were as Polish as Stettin/Szczecin and Breslau/Wrocław were German, nothing controversial about it. Stettin and Breslau - originally slavic cities which got germanized because of huge german influences and for most of their history in Germany/HRE, Wilno and Lwów - originally lithuanian and ruthenian cities and then Polonized because of huge polish influence and being for most of their history in a polish controlled state. IMO, Taking Wilno before WWII wasn't fair (despite the polish/belarusian majority) because Lithuanians deserved it more since it was their capital for long time, but taking Lwow was just as logical as Germany getting Stettin or Breslau - it simply WAS Polish back then.

Nathan, most Poles I have talked to balk even at the mention of Lwów being Ukrainian. They criticise Russia for large-scale imperialism but don't acknowledge when they themselves partake in it. They still see it as a part of Poland.

The borders shouldn't have been shifted westward (because what for?) in the first place, so more or less it's the fault of the Russians/Soviets and uncle Joe (or generally of the Yalta conference and the big 3) rather than Polish imperialism here - it's the same mood as in Germany where some of Germans still see some of our cities as theirs... and it's pretty understandable since some people don't forget and don't acommodate easy to such big changes.


Home / History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage...
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.