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Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?



David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #1

Is it possible "politically" to give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany?

If Poland and germany would have to pay for it, how much would those areas cost?

If not money, what would Russia and Ukraine want in return for Lwow and kaliningrad?


THE HITMAN - | 236    
27 Jun 2010  #2

If not money, what would Russia and Ukraine want in return for Lwow and kaliningrad?

Warsaw and Berlin. lol
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
27 Jun 2010  #3

Is it possible "politically" to give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany?

No, both Lwów and Kaliningrad are poor regions that would require extensive investment that neither country can afford, also Kaliningrad is far from Germany and both Poland and Germany dont have the population to effectively settle these regions.

The problem associated with these two regions is that in an unlikely even that they come aquirable they come together with Ukrainians and poverty or Russians and poverty, neither is desirable.
jwojcie 2 | 763    
27 Jun 2010  #4

Hm.. so, you say that after we finish brand new stadium in Wroclaw and brand new highway around it, you want us to give it back for some city 600 km away?

(because you know, you can't forget about Wroclaw in such exchange...)

No chance in hell! If you like Lwów so much, then you can emigrate there. There is no need for geopolitical earthshaking just for you ;-)
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #5

neither is desirable.

They do have some historical value!!!
jwojcie 2 | 763    
27 Jun 2010  #6

Then go and write a book about it!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Jun 2010  #7

They do have some historical value!!!

Kaliningrad hasn't any anymore whatsoever...Stalin made sure of that as he let the old Königsberg raze to the ground.
It's a russian town today...strange and with foreign people...nothing german about it anymore.

(Even if they try to woo german tourists lately with renovating prussian heritage buildings)

So no from Germany, Russia can keep it!
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
27 Jun 2010  #8

They do have some historical value!!!

Yes they do but today Lwów is a dilapidated underdeveloped and ruined city and Kaliningrad is a third world AIDS infested hellhole.

youtube.com/watch?v=yTbp5Pbk-L8

A street in the centre of Lwów.
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #9

A street in the centre of Lwów.

Some times i really wonder how the west slavs can be related to the east slavs.
delphiandomine 80 | 15,898    
27 Jun 2010  #10

If Poland and germany would have to pay for it, how much would those areas cost?

It would cost, at least in the sense of the Lviv Oblast - a huge problem with a large minority that doesn't want to be in Poland and a huge amount of money to bring Western Ukraine to anything approaching Polish standards. Anyone that's actually been and compared SE Poland to Western Ukraine will know just how crushingly large the differences are. Bear in mind that Poland can hardly afford to deal with her own blackspots - she doesn't have a chance in hell of managing to afford to incorporate the Lviv Oblast too.

A street in the centre of Lwów.

I've seen it with my own eyes last summer - it's literally 5 minutes walk from the Opera and 10 minutes from the Rynok. And yes, my reaction was along the lines of "what in the ****...?". Plenty of stray dogs going about, too.

Some times i really wonder how the west slavs can be related to the east slavs.

Why? Poland was given access to the West very quickly and wasn't so badly neglected as the outposts of the USSR were. If you knew your history, you'd understand this ;) And to be fair - that street is by far the worst thing in the centre of Lviv.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Jun 2010  #11

A street in the centre of Lwó

Did a bomb explode there???
delphiandomine 80 | 15,898    
27 Jun 2010  #12

Probably the age old problem in Ukraine - the street was due to be renovated, but the money went walkies and nothing got finished.
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #13

Why? Poland was given access to the West very quickly and wasn't so badly neglected as the outposts of the USSR were. If you knew your history, you'd understand this ;)

can you explain me this?

How come that in over 1000 years the russian people have been opressed by their own leaders, and haven't lifted a finger about it. While the Polish people have been free, and when their freedoom was taken away they fought to regain it?

I mean are the russians dumb? how hard is it to make a uprising? just look at the poles, when something ain't right they revolt.

What im trying to say is that, the russians and the people under their influence lives in poverty because of the lifestyle they been having for the last 1000 years.
delphiandomine 80 | 15,898    
27 Jun 2010  #14

can you explain me this?

Not much to explain - post 1989, Poland joined the "West" way of doing things very very quickly. In fact, as early as September 1989, Western experts were being brought to Poland to advise and consult on the best way forward. This didn't happen in Russia/Ukraine.

How come that in over 1000 years the russian people have been opressed and haven't lifted a finger about it.

They like strong leadership, that much is certain. I think the Russian character also prefers stability over freedom - look at the chaotic instability of the Polish State versus the somewhat stable Russian State. And to be fair - a strong centre is what keeps Russia together - after all, "Russia" is really made up of so many different components and nationalities.

I mean are the russians dumb? how hard is it to make a uprising?

Bit of an oversimplification, don't you think?

just look at the poles, when something ain't right they revolt.

Actually, Poles were crushed very easily on several occasions in history.

What im trying to say is that, the russians and the people under their influence lives in poverty because of the lifestyle they been having for the last 1000 years.

Actually, I wouldn't say that the majority of people in Russia and the Russian sphere of influence are living in poverty. It may not be the high life, but the vast majority of them are clothed, housed, watered and fed. Poverty is when you don't have at least one of those things - and they do.

And let's not forget that there is a lot of money floating around those countries too.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Jun 2010  #15

What im trying to say is that, the russians and the people under their influence lives in poverty because of the lifestyle they been having for the last 1000 years.

There was no freedom for the common people the last 1000 years anywhere...it started kind of with the US (minus the slaves), and then somehow democracy developed...with breaks...in some countries...but that it's about it.

The Russians are late comer and winning WWII didn't help to make a clean cut with old structures and thinking (like in Germany)...but not 1000 years late...maybe 70 years or so..

(Don't scream at me...that was world history in one sentence and a veeeeery broad generalization)
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #16

They like strong leadership, that much is certain. I think the Russian character also prefers stability over freedom - look at the chaotic instability of the Polish State versus the somewhat stable Russian State. And to be fair - a strong centre is what keeps Russia together - after all, "Russia" is really made up of so many different components and nationalities.

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery"
Rafał Leszczyński The Palatine of Posen
Ironside 43 | 8,180    
27 Jun 2010  #17

you can't forget about Wroclaw in such exchange...)

you stupid ****** shut your mug
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
27 Jun 2010  #18

Did a bomb explode there???

Delphia is correct, they basically did their best to renovate stuff since Lwów apart from the centre ranges from a mild mess to a complete sh*thole, but they didnt have the money to finish it, same with loads of buildings and other streets, the plans were ambitious so they started loads of projects without regard to the money and now they're f*cked.

Things are going forwards though, citizens get running water in Lwów downtown 24/7 since 2008.

at the chaotic instability of the Polish State versus the somewhat stable Russian State.

You went a little overboard calling Poland unstable and very overboard calling Russia stable.

how hard is it to make a uprising?

Extremely hard, out of 5 major national uprisings only two Greater Poland ones were succesfull in Poland and we were a lot more organised and efficient then Russians or even Germans, we had the best army in Europe in one of them and they still failed.

Also against whom would Russians rebel?

you stupid ****** shut your mug

The fact is Lwów survived intact and Ukrainians messed it up, Russians moonscaped Breslau and when it became Wrocław we rebuilt it, though not to its former glory, the job we did was pretty decent.

People like you want to exchange a city that Ukraine has messed up for 50 years for a city we've rebuilt practically from scratch and developed into one of Polands major metropolis.
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #19

citizens get running water in Lwów downtown 24/7 since 2008.

HAHAHHA seriously?

Also against whom would Russians rebel?

The leaders
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
27 Jun 2010  #20

HAHAHHA seriously?

Hot water that is, Lwów was using old Polish and Habsburg pipe system that saw little renovation or maintnance after Poland fell in 1939, years ago the plumbing went down and it took a lot of effort and money to bring running hot water to some sections of Lwów, they solved it in 2008.

Also David while Ukrainians are poor they're not cavemen, for all their faults they're our neighbours i'm not pleased when Westerners sh*t on Poland because they've got more moola, lets not do it to others eh?

The leaders

They already did that, Tsardom changed the name to Communism and that was it.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Jun 2010  #21

They already did that, Tsardom changed the name to Communism and that was it.

Yeah...I thought the same...as if any revolution brought any progress to the common folks...just the murderers and blood suckers changed.
Ironside 43 | 8,180    
27 Jun 2010  #22

People like you want to exchange a city that Ukraine has messed up for 50 years for a city we've rebuilt practically from scratch and developed into one of Polands major metropolis.

What are you about?I don't think about exchange. I angry because some people have coded in their brains that regaining our land in the east automatically means that we have to give up lands in the west.

That connection is not logical nor right, it is connection made by communist propaganda, so deeply ingrained that some brainless schmooze cannot get it out of his head.
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #23

Also David while Ukrainians are poor they're not cavemen, for all their faults they're our neighbours i'm not pleased when Westerners sh*t on Poland because they've got more moola, lets not do it to others eh?

Neighbours or not. They have a country that they got no historical rights too.

Rich or poor, i don't care.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
27 Jun 2010  #24

I angry because some people have coded in their brains that regaining our land in the east automatically means that we have to give up lands in the west.

But it does, newsflash for you Germans want stuff back, they're not willing to go to war or take it back via any sort of malevolent action, they dont have the population to do it either but they still want Wrocław back, if Poland re-aquires Lwów the question of Wrocław will rise the moment some Steinbach monkey comes to prominence in Germany.

That connection is not logical nor right

See above, it is logical. Lwów was Polish, Wrocław was German, the situation is analogous.

They have a country that they got no historical rights too.

Lets assume we get Lwów back what then? Do you kick the Ukrainians out? If not then how do you integrate them into Poland, if yes then where will Poland get engineers, doctors, teachers, policemen, firemen and all these people essential to running a large city to settle in Lwów? We have a shortage of these people already.

Rights or no rights, we've got a good peace in Europe and a good peace in Poland, there's no point in destroying it, not even for Lwów.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Jun 2010  #25

Right or no rights, we've got a good peace in Europe and a good peace in Poland, there's no point in destroying it, not even for Lwów.

That's the same opinion 99,9 percent of the Germans have regarding the former eastern territories.
We have a good thing going here, no need to destroy everything because one thing should be clear...there will be no peaceful "rearranging" of geographical, political facts.

So better don't open that special pandora box.
Ironside 43 | 8,180    
27 Jun 2010  #26

But it does, newsflash for you Germans want stuff back, they're not willing to go to war or take it back via any sort of malevolent action, they dont have the population to do it either but they still want Wrocław back, if Poland re-aquires Lwów the question of Wrocław will rise the moment some Steinbach monkey comes to prominence in Germany.

T
Where is a will there is a way, right now I'm talking about will, and mucho depend on a way it will be done - so is good to predict some problems to find a way to avoid them- is that clear enough ?

Lwów was Polish, Wrocław was German, the situation is analogous.

Germans lost. Poland won( at last theoretically), German aggressors, evicting population, grabbing land - who seeds wind, harvest tempest or what goes around comes around :)

Similar doesn't means the same!
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #27

Wrocław back, if Poland re-aquires Lwów the question of Wrocław will rise the moment some Steinbach monkey comes to prominence in Germany.

Ever heard about the silesian piasts? Wroclaw and the whole Silesia was ruled under the Silesian branch of the polish piasts untill the end of the 1700'th century.

Lets assume we get Lwów back what then? Do you kick the Ukrainians out?

No :) We let them work for us, like they'e been doing for centuries.
MareGaea 29 | 2,770    
27 Jun 2010  #28

We want Belgium and Luxemburg back so the Low Countries can become one again!

>^..^<

M-G (belligerent)
OP David_18 69 | 987    
27 Jun 2010  #29

We want Belgium and Luxemburg back so the Low Countries can become one again!

What are you waiting for then? Viva la revulition!!!!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Jun 2010  #30

Similar doesn't means the same

But it is...you are as able to get your hands back on Lwow as Germany can do with Breslau.
It's the same!

Better concentrate on Ukraine getting into the EU and therefore opening up the Ukraine/Lwow for Poles and renovating/rebuilding it with EU-support.

Everything else might be entertaining thought games for some but absolutely unrealistic!




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