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Chance of Lwów once again became coming part of Poland


jon357 67 | 16,836
18 Feb 2016 #331
100 years

100 years ago was early 1916 when they were in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and at war.

Pre-WWII Western Ukraine, including the Soviet side, was much more Polish

That was before the massive post-war population moves. The land may still be there but the people moved; someone else owns it now.

Nobody wants Russia or the Soviet Union, and the cretin Putin is roughly despised, however most of the people of that region are now Ukrainians. And Poland does not want to split the Ukraine, a country already struggling with an illegal Putinist invasion in the east.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
18 Feb 2016 #332
No, according to a Russian historian this was on the Russian side of the partition. People in Wołyn, Podolia, etc., did not consider that they lived in Ukraine. Therefore they did not consider themselves Ukrainian. That is not to say that they had all considered themselves Poles, but the modern Ukrainian ethnic identity is quite new, and somewhat contrived. The Hapsburgs were quite instrumental in creating it. The standard Ukrainian dialect comes Poltava. Western Ukraine historically was a much more Polish influenced dialect.

100 years ago was early 1916 when they were in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and at war.

delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
18 Feb 2016 #333
Considering that 100 years ago the people in Western Ukraine didn't consider that they lived in Ukraine, which they considered to be on the other side of the Dnieper, it wouldn't take much for them to relearn their history.

That's revisionist bollocks, to be frank.

Western Ukraine was always the heart of Ukrainian nationalism, which is why Poland (and Austria) did so much to keep a lid on it. Suggesting that they should 'relearn history' is straight out of the book of fascism.

People standing in the long lines at the Polish consulate certainly do.

That's economic and nothing to do with national identity.

Pre-WWII Western Ukraine, including the Soviet side, was much more Polish before Stalin started sending "Poles" to the gulag.

That's a nice bit of revisionism. In fact, it was a very mixed place. Stanisławów Voivoidship for instance - Poles only made up around 20% of the population. A quick look shows that self-declared Ukrainian speakers were just short of a majority in that province.

Much of the Ukrainian nationalism is pushed by the ruling oligarchs.

Hahahaha. That's a nice attempt at revisionism, but the oligarchs were never particularly interested in Ukrainian nationalism. The current President is the first one, really.

As Ukraine collapses economically and possibly politically, look for Western Ukraine to look for integration with Poland.

That's just not going to happen. Ukrainians would rather starve than let Poles anywhere near them again.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
18 Feb 2016 #334
Considering that this account comes from before WWI, absolutely not. Read Kate Brown and pay attention to her sources in "A Biography Of No Place". If you haven't read that book, you can't understand the region. It is one of the best books available in English. It won an award for the best history book the year it was published and Harvard University Press doesn't publish commie neo-Stalinism. Bullocks yourself. Ignoramus!

That's revisionist bollocks, to be frank.

Historyremeber
18 Feb 2016 #335
Here is a scenario to ponder, 20 years down the road Ukraine joins the Eurozone.

How long do you think it will take for the families of the formerGalicia to come out of the woodwork and reclaim their historical rights to Ukrainian land ?

Nationalist or not that is the price for joining democratic Europe.
dolnoslask
18 Feb 2016 #336
" come out of the woodwork and reclaim their historical rights to Ukrainian land" yep that will be me reclaiming "Polish" land that was stolen from my family.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
18 Feb 2016 #337
Western Ukraine was always the heart of Ukrainian nationalism

If you are talking about Easter Malopolska than you need to define what do you mean by 'always' in the year 1848 there were not such a thing you so boldly put forward. Do you mean 'always' as in 'as long as you remember'? That would totally explain it!

A quick look shows that self-declared Ukrainian speakers were just short of a majority in that province.

Considering that most Poles living in the area at the time were also 'Ukrainian speakers' you failed to make your point.

Ukrainians would rather starve

There are three tiers or kinds of Ukrainians - eastern, center and western - you might be right about the western ones but they are anyhow embracing fascism in a more vile form than Nazism.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
18 Feb 2016 #338
yep that will be me reclaiming "Polish" land that was stolen from my family.

...then you'll realise that the land comes with some very angry locals who are hellbent on making sure that you can't use it.

Considering that this account comes from before WWI, absolutely not.

You do realise that it was routine for Poles to deny Ukrainian self-determination in the days of the Austro-Hungarian Empire for their own political purposes? If you don't understand how the Ukrainian self-identity was deeply discouraged by the occupying powers, you've got no hope for understanding the region.

How long do you think it will take for the families of the formerGalicia to come out of the woodwork and reclaim their historical rights to Ukrainian land ?

Which would then open up the massive German can of worms in Poland. There's a very good reason why Poland is firmly against such claims in foreign countries.
dolnoslask
18 Feb 2016 #339
" with some very angry locals who are hellbent" yep they shot our police teachers, anyone in a polish uniform, they strung our kids up in trees with barbed wire, then helped the soviets to deport the rest to Siberia. goes without saying we would have to watch out for the locals for sure.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
18 Feb 2016 #340
All of Europe denied the concept of self-determination of people before WWI. Then after WWII, half of Europe was denied self-determination of peoples. There is no evidence that a majority of people in Western Ukraine had wanted to be separate from Poland after WWI. Since the Soviet archives note protests from Ukrainians marching to the Polish border to demand that Poland invade to save it from Stalin in the 1930's, and Yale's Timothy Snyder concluded that after the Soviet annexation in 1939 Ukrainians were nostalgic for Polish rule, there was more pro-Polish sentiment here than you acknowledge. What is clear is that the Ukrainian nationalists were brutal fascists who killed their relatives in the most barbaric manner and put the Nazis to shame and Stalin engaged in ethnic cleansing starting on the Soviet side of the border before the war. There was no self-determination of peoples here after the war either.

You do realise that it was routine for Poles to deny Ukrainian self-determination in the days of the Austro-Hungarian Empire for their own political purposes?

Correction: Kate Brown wrote that people in Western Ukraine before WWI considered Ukraine to have been the steppe:
environmentandsociety.org/mml/transformed-landscape-steppes-ukraine-and-russia
The Dnieper was the dividing line proposed by Lenin at Riga in 1921.
Crow 146 | 9,106
28 Mar 2017 #341
Well, with strengthening of Nazism in what is now Ukraine, chances increasing for Poland to get back Lwow. It actually becoming logical.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
28 Mar 2017 #342
self-determination of people before WWI

okey,but the problem is,that i doubt you would find any support for joining Poland in Lwow or western Ukraine.so case closed.
such life,you gain some you lose some,there it is no possible to recover Lwow ,unless you proposing invasion and ethnic cleansing.
we got prussia and silesia..bad deal if you ask me but whats done its done.
Crow 146 | 9,106
28 Mar 2017 #343
unless you proposing invasion and ethnic cleansing

But, if Nazi bandera forces start to ethnically cleanse remaining local Poles, what else Poland can do then to protect its people. Actually, not only Poles but all people in the area, no matter ethnicity (not to mention that are people there actually in many cases assimilated Poles and have Polish origin, anyway). It would be duty of Poland, in that extreme situation. If Poland isn`t capable to do it, then, I would dare to ask, why would Poles pay taxes for Polish army? Really?

bad deal if you ask me but whats done its done.

Rise of Nazism changing previous deal.
Crow 146 | 9,106
28 Mar 2017 #344
EU hold Poland. NATO, too. Its obvious. Polish interests already on so many fields collide with interests of western Europe.


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