The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 344

Chance of Lwów once again became coming part of Poland


trancespottingp - | 25
17 Nov 2014 #271
now that Russia is already gobbling up Ukraine, I'd say slim to none...

I heard a rumor of Russian diplomats going to PL and offering land in the Ukraine in return for Poland's military support and breaking away from NATO. Naturally, PL got scared... that's probably why there's been this whole thing of 'spies' getting kicked out..
Lwowskie Baciar
14 May 2015 #272
I know that I will be on my own here but... in my opinion Lwów will always be part of Poland - the Poles had it from the 1350's and the Ukraine for only the last 70 years. It is a beautiful city with a great deal of the most beautiful songs written, many sketches from Szepczio and Toncio, its own culinary cuisine not to mention its own unique language called Barłak. My family were from Lwów and I have been very privileged to have known some remarkable people from the Lwowian radio "Lwowska Fala" and London's Lwowskie Koło. Although I am 3rd generation I feel incredible pain of being separated from my home town of Lwów. As one songs goes... The Children of Lwów are those who have their roots from that town - and Lwów will never die into obscurity as long the children descended from Lwowian roots still speak a little barłak, sing the songs and teach their children the same love of Lwów as they feel.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
14 May 2015 #273
In love and politics everything is possible. In a state of conflict nothing can be ruled out a priori. There could be a situation where Russia has annexed not only Donbas but also chunks of central Ukraine and the Ukrainian autorites turn to Poland for assistance. They themselves might offer Poland the return of Lwów in compensation if they thought Moscow was bent on absorbing all of Ukraine. Not very probable, but it or some other scenario now difficutl to imagine canot be ruled out entirely.
jon357 67 | 16,836
14 May 2015 #274
the Poles had it from the 1350's and the Ukraine for only the last 70 years

And it was Lemberg in Austro-Hungary for many years, too.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
15 May 2015 #275
Under Austrian occupation only from the late 18th century till 1918. But Lwów has always been a major Polish cultural centre, a pearl of Polish literature, music, architecture and beaux arts regardless of what alien force was occupying it.
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 May 2015 #276
And that period shaped so much of the city's life and culture. Now proudly Ukrainian, however you can still hear the Polish traces in the way people speak there.
Veles - | 164
15 May 2015 #277
regardless of what alien force was occupying it.

Poland was that alien force.
Crow 146 | 9,112
15 May 2015 #278
Chances? Minor, i would say. It would be historical justice that is Lwow part of Poland but, chances are truly minor now. Poland`s politics failed.

Poland greatly mistaken for blindly followed official EU politics. It was mistake to follow stance of non-Slavic western Europeans and regarded Ukraine as consolidated country, with its natural and real borders. This stance strategically suited western Europeans because Ukraine, with its borders in time of maiden, reduced chances that Russia and Russians correct historical injustice and pledge to change borders of Ukraine.

It is honest to say that Ukrainian nation deserve to have its national Ukrainian state but, its also honest to admit that many territories of Ukraine with borders in time of maiden, were not realm that belong to Ukrainian nation. So, if one wanted to have national and independent Ukrainian state, one needed to count on negotiations about Ukrainian borders with Russia and Poland, at least.

But, as we know, official Poland ignored historical justice, ignored honesty to interests of some others and even to the interests of Poland and Poles.

Anyway, as epilogue, we would have situation that Poles suffered historical injustice, that is historical justice of Russians just partly satisfied and that young Ukrainian nation got more then what historically belong to her. And all that thanks to western Europe and USA, while would on the other side, Ukraine, on the long run, antagonize its relations with Russia and Poland. Furthermore, that situation would suits to those elements in Ukraine (anti-Slavic extremists) who would (due to gratitude and pure interests), hold Ukraine eternally close to the western Europeans, more and more weakening Slavic spirit of Ukrainians and maybe even germanizing them with time.

So, at one moment Poland helped to western Europe to consolidate its influence in the region, to harm Russians, sacrificing at the same time its own interests and accepting historical injustice on Poles, while on the long run, also, helped weakening of Slavic spirit in Ukraine. On the other side, that same western Europe became guarantor of the new (future) borders of Ukraine what also means that is historical injustice on Poles cemented.

This is my friends how western Europeans deal with Slavs. Here, as many times before, Poland (Polish ruling establishment) was totally manipulated by its partners from the west of Europe, in turn manipulating with Poles for the sake of foreign interests.
CONIO
22 May 2015 #279
jon357 : And that period shaped so much of the city's life and culture.

But incomparably less than the previous centuries
Lwowskie Baciar
31 May 2015 #280
My dear fellow Lwowian brothers, if something is so great and important as Lwow then it is definitely worth fighting for! We must set the ball rolling in trying to make Lwów part of Poland again. We must do this by whatever means possible - by writing articles in the local paper, by writing to heads of state...etc. The important thing is not to give up! We may not regain Lwów in our generation, but it will certainly get the ball rolling for the next generation. If only a few people start and are joined by a few more and they by a few more, etc.. then pretty soon you will have a nation wanting its return to Poland. Lwów was one of the three most important towns before the war along with Krakow and Warsaw - it should have NEVER been given to the Ukraine which was historical stupidity and which MUST be put right! Why not get a petition going and send it to the new president? If we keep on resending this on a weekly basis with more names added - eventually he won't be able to ignore us? what do people think?
RubasznyRumcajs 5 | 487
31 May 2015 #281
They are no chances of Lviv "going back to Poland".
Poland already has problems with its economy; getting eastern Ukraine lands would bring even more problems (economical and social).
Crow 146 | 9,112
31 May 2015 #282
The important thing is not to give up! We may not regain Lwów in our generation, but it will certainly get the ball rolling for the next generation.

This is exactly what USA and western European powers wanted. That is, among else, why they sponsored pro-banderist Nazi regime in Ukraine. To create long run reason for conflict between Poland and Ukraine, to open questions stay opened. You think NATO and EU leading powers wanted to scr** Russia only? Oh, no, no, they are systematic. They sow processes in Poland that wanted strong Visegrad Group, embryo of new Commonwealth. So they created fragile situation in the region, that they control things.

If Polish politics supported cooperative Russian stance (in situation when ethnic Ukrainians wanted to have national ethnic Ukrainian state)- that is Ukraine one artificial and unnatural state and that are negotiations about borders of that state necessary, today, Lwow would be on the realistic way to Poland. But no, EU fanatics and certain pro-NATO hawks in Poland needed to blindly follow USA and western European dictate and they dealt historical blow into Poland`s interests.

it should have NEVER been given to the Ukraine which was historical stupidity and which MUST be put right!

try to use force and it would create long time antagonism bigger then ever, which would for sure destroy chances of Ukraine as part of new Commonwealth around Poland, in next 100 years or ever. Not to say that is use of force even excluded now when is regime in Ukraine allied with USA and western European powers.

See, west of Europe destroyed new Commonwealth around Poland and that even wasn`t created yet. That is how they work. Plan moves 50-100 years in advance.

Eh, my naive Poles. They play with you. But, if you just a little were opened to work with Russians,... as tragically died Lech Kaczynski suggested

Do Poland even have long time national politics? any national politics?
Lwowskie Baciar
31 May 2015 #283
RubasznyRumcajs : I don't agree that Poland will "never" regain Lwów. If enough people want it back, then in time...who knows?

Poland had major economic problems in 89 and now look how far Poland has come? Polish people and Polish spirit will turn the economic situation around. The resourcefulness of the Poles is second to none. ;) So that eventually Lwów may find its place once again in Polish History...slowly my friend very slowly. But the ball needs to start rolling now. My only concern is that not enough people are really that interested, which saddens my heart. Patriotism which existed before the war seems to have died out. The brave Poles who fought so gallantly and died for their ojczyzna, fought for the freedom of all of Poland. If Gen.Sikorski had not "mysteriously" died then it is every chance that all of Poland would have regained her freedom. Very sad history... my heart bleeds for Poland :(

Crow - Sorry but Russia is not to be trusted. In the past the UK did not believe that Russia was so corrupt, but now it is starting to see her true colours!

Ukrainians have not been an enemy to Poland. On my many visits to Lwów they are very friendly and hospitable - but old Lwów is crumbling the beautiful old buildings need major repair - the Ukraine has no resources for such renovation. In time, if Poland did regain Lwów then Poland's economic difficulty would have hopefully resolved - the EU would also help financially with buildings of such historical importance.

The question is how to get Lwów back? I do not advocate war with Ukraine - this would prove disaster. Rather I advocate peaceful street demonstrations, writing to heads of state, petitions, articles etc... This may appear to be futile, but it would hopefully be the start to a long "peaceful" battle of regaining beloved Lwów to Poland where she belongs. Lwów motto "Semper Fidelis" Always faithful - just like the beautiful lions outside the town hall with captions "Zawsze wierny" "Tobie Polsko"which were destroyed once Lwów was taken away from Poland.

I was raised by my Lwowian grandparents who were not allowed to go back to Poland after the war due to the soviet regime. My first language was Polish-Barłak (accent and lingo of Lwów) I had many old friends who spoke this longo but have now died. Now in my late 40's I feel as if I am the only person who speaks in such a way. I have no one to share songs Lwów songs or dialogue with. It is sad but this is why Lwów is so important to me. It is where all my blood and family roots come from.

My last friend Włada Majewska died not to long ago. As well as being a lawyer she also sang for Radio Lwowska Fala. This is one of the sad songs she sang about her beloved Lwów. youtube.com/watch?v=2f66d2f_beE
Crow 146 | 9,112
31 May 2015 #284
Crow - Sorry but Russia is not to be trusted.

Let`s not go into it. Its long story. i know that Poles and Russians don`t trust to each others but, both trust to Serbs. Poland should do same what Hungary doing right now- work with Russians via mediation of Serbians. Instead of it, what Poland doing? support downfall of Serbs as strongest Slavic factor in the region and indirectly support formation of Greater Albania, while giving all kind of signals to Serbs that they still can count on Poland. i understand Poland`s difficulties but, why Hungary can think of itself and apply it on its politics, while Poland can`t.

The question is how to get Lwów back?

what you think that Serbian Chetniks work on terrain? Among other things (protection of ethnic Serbs there), as some observers understand things (its not publicly said for obvious reasons), they are there as reserve options, for all major Slavic players there considering that Serbs have trust of Ukrainians, Russians and Poles. Chetniks are mobile and fast moving, with intention to confront banderists in every opportunity.

Poland should act quickly (no matter EU and NATO pressure on her politics and western European and USA guaranties to pro-bandera regime in Kiev), if clashes between banderists and Serbian Chetniks occur in regions with ethnic Polish element. That would give every excuse to Poland (in front of EU and NATO) to act, to show that Poland itself must take part in protection of ethnic Poles in chaos that occurred. Russia won`t complaint, same as didn`t complaint when Ukraine and Serbia wanted to join in Visegrad Group, before west of Europe and USA aggressively endangered Russian interests there.

Serbian interest is that are all three sides satisfied- Russians, Poles and Ukrainians, because of future projects.

As first step, Poland should follow example of Czech Republic and announce possibility to annul its decision of Kosovo recognition. It would show that Poland seriously reforming its politics. After first shock of major EU players and USA, Poland should do same as Hungary- enter in joint Serbian-Hungarian-Russian-Chinese projects.

strictly in case with Lwow paradigm. This you won`t get as info reading USA or western European sources

Behind the scene (but one can google about is), change of Hungarian politics occurred exactly because of situation in Ukraine. Reason is Hungarian territorial appetites (from time of Austro-Hungaria) and ethnic Hungarian minority in Ukraine. That is why Hungary wisely support Russian stance that, if ethnic Ukrainians wants independent national state, they have right to ask for it but, just after negotiations with other owners over the territory of what is now Ukraine. So, Hungarians appears as potential re-claimers of `their` old territory same as Russians and Poles.

Now, Serbian Chetniks act as buffer force of all interests there, considering that they have reason to be there for protection of ethnic Serbs there but, without hope for gaining territory for Serbia itself (Serbia don`t have territorial connection with Ukraine, that in the first place). This situation makes Chetniks suitable mediators, even for the government in Kiev. How for government in Kiev? As reserve option for ethnic Ukrainians to abandon path (on which USA and EU leading powers force them) of confrontation with Poles, Russians, Hungarians (re-claimers on the land), and changing policy enter in negotiations about real ethnic Ukrainian national borders.

So, Serbian Chetniks are Slavic respond on western European and USA games in the region. Chetnik actions have to give excuse to Poland and to Hungary to act in chaotic regions and re-claim territory. That is exactly what happened in Crimea. Actions of Chetniks `forced` action of Russian state (local Russians prized Chetnik protection criticizing Russian hesitation; see- Russia didn`t care what would NATO and EU say but Russia waited for situation where would pro-Russian locals blame Russia even for betrayal for not coming to help them; at the same time situation suited Kiev to get rid of pro-Russian population).

But, Hungary isn`t Slavic country and by that, from position of Serbian Chetniks (Serbia), can`t be re-claimers on territory in Ukraine. That is why Hungary distancing from German and USA policy, tries to gives guaranties that won`t work against Slavs. On the long run, this changing in Hungarian policy put Hungary even closer to Poles what would suit plans for future Commonwealth around Poland.
Vlad1234 16 | 757
1 Jun 2015 #285
No i wouldn't have a problem with any Ukrainians in Lviv if it became part of Poland again

I wouldn't be wondered if majority of Lviv inhabitants would agree to become Polish citizens. Inhabitants of rural areas even more though. However Ukrainian govt. and rest of Ukraine would hardly tolerate it. Another problem is the language. It's not quite merciful to force people to speak in hissing language.
Legal Eagle
20 Dec 2015 #286
moved from

Considering historical reasons and development in what is now Ukraine, Lwow would be in Poland again.

Not many Poles remain in Ukraine now. Stalin considered them a major threat to to his peasant's paradise and forced many to resettle in Siberia and Kazakhstan. The Budapest Memorandum kept the status quo, which was a Russian leaning Ukraine as buffer state. The buffer state is now gone, since the present regime in Kiev is in a not so cold war with Russia. Ukraine is a massively corrupt place, and only Western financial support keeps it from being a failed state. Donald Trump is the master of the deal, and simply declaring Ukraine a failed state while recognizing that Putin is essentially correct to call it an accidental state created by massive crimes against humanity, leads to letting in fall apart and reassigning the pieces.

Before the war Ukrainians were a subgroup of Ruthenians. There undeniably were large numbers of Ruthenians, e.g., the Carpo-Rusyns, who had rejected the Ukrainian ethnicity before it was violently forced upon them by the fascist Ukrainian nationalists and Stalin. The Orthodox in Wołyn had developed a different identity from the Catholics in Galicia. The newspaper archives in Lwów were destroyed, and the Greek Catholics forced to renounce the Pope by the Soviets for a reason. The Carpo-Rusyns are believed to be descended from the White Croats. I have never read of Serbs in Ukriane. Please enlighten me about that topic.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Dec 2015 #287
Donald Trump

What does Donald Trump have to do with Ukraine?
Crow 146 | 9,112
20 Dec 2015 #288
I have never read of Serbs in Ukriane. Please enlighten me about that topic.

Facing great number of Serbians within Polish army and having great inflow of new wave of Serbian refugees into the Ukraine/Russia because of Ottoman Turkish invasion (in period 14th-16th century most Serbian migrated to Poland, from 16th-18th century to Ukraine and Russia), Imperial Russia decided to use Serbians as peacekeeping factor and allowed to Serbian refugees in Ukraine to form their own province as the buffer zone between Poland, Russia and Ukrainian Cossack. Logic was clear, put Serbs in position to fight Serbs if comes to movements of armies. Plus, Serbians themselves had great influence on all Slavs in the region. So, it helped in maintaining peace.

ns

New Serbia
source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Serbia_%28historical_province%29

New Serbia (Ukrainian: Нова Сербія or Nova Serbiya; ............... was a military frontier of Imperial Russia from 1752 to 1764 subordinated directly to the Senat and Military Collegium.

It was mostly located in the territory of present-day Kirovohrad Oblast of Ukraine, although some of its parts were located in the territory of present-day Cherkasy Oblast, Poltava Oblast and Dnipropetrovsk Oblast. The administrative centre of New Serbia was Novomirgorod (literally "New Mirgorod"), which is now Novomyrhorod, Ukraine.

Later, Serbians managed to form another province in what is now Ukraine

ss

Slavo-Serbia

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavo-Serbia

Slavo-Serbia (Ukrainian: Слов'яносе́рбія; Russian: Славяносербия (Slavyanoserbiya); .................... was a territory of Imperial Russia between 1753 and 1764. It was located by the right bank of the Donets River between the Bakhmut (Бахмут) and Luhan (Лугань) rivers. This area today constitutes the territories of present-day Luhansk Oblast and Donetsk Oblast of Ukraine. The administrative centre of Slavo-Serbia was Bakhmut (Bahmut).

s

Serbian historical provinces in the region
Ironside 50 | 10,907
20 Dec 2015 #289
That PO bunch of the Merkle's lapdogs and the EU spoiled a great opportunity for Lwów to once again became part of Poland.

Serbian historical provinces in the region

What? Those would be rather Hungarian provinces.
Legal Eagle
20 Dec 2015 #290
Besides why do you need that?

Hmmm... Because the Poles built that city. It is their culture, and history, and it was taken from them as part of the Stalin-Hitler partnership in part of their unprecedented crimes against humanity. The architecture, museums and art in Lwow, are Polish culture, not Ukrainian.

As a result, Polish were killing Ukrainians and Ukrainians were killing Polish.

If all of that were true, then why did the Soviets need to destroy the newspaper archives in Lwów? Not much killing occurred there during the Second Polish Republic other than subversives sneaking across the Soviet border, and that terrorist Bandera seeking to destabilize Poland. Vasyl Mudry didn't become the Deputy Speaker in the Sejm because of his hatred of Poland, and he remained loyal to the Polish state after the Soviets invaded.

Right now Lviv is a heart of Ukraine and its culture.

Right, because the peasant Ukrainian movement had no culture of its own so it had to steal a Polish city. Lwów didn't become the cultural jewel that it is because of the people who wore silly peasant shirts.

Over 95% Lviv inhabitants speak Ukrainian and neither Polish nor Russians were successful to force Western Ukrainians to change their identity.

The Poles never tried to force anyone to change their identities. The fascist Ukrainian nationalists and Stalin did ethnically cleanse the region of Jews and Poles. They also forced Carpo-Rusyns and other Ruthenians to identify themselves as ethnic Ukrainians and learn the Ukrainian language, and denied that the Carpo-Rusyns spoke a different language. (And any respectable linguist outside of Ukraine recognizes this. See Robert Magosci's work.)
Crow 146 | 9,112
20 Dec 2015 #291
That PO bunch of the Merkle's lapdogs and the EU spoiled a great opportunity for Lwów

long time ago i said on this forum that EU`s aggressive involvement in maiden events prevented Poland to regain Lwow. Weak Poland is one of main western European priorities.

What? Those would be rather Hungarian provinces.

not, if we have historical reality in mind.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Dec 2015 #292
That PO bunch of the Merkle's lapdogs and the EU spoiled a great opportunity for Lwów to once again became part of Poland.

What great opportunity? :D

More to the point, who exactly was going to pay to integrate a large and very poor region into Poland? Average wage in Ukraine is around 750zł, and that's including the wealthier Eastern cities such as Dnipropetrovsk and Kharkiv. Western Ukraine is horrifically poor - have you ever been there? I've spent some time there exploring the former Polish towns (even went to several Polish churches there...) and looking at what Poland left behind - essentially, the infrastructure is exactly how it was in many places when Poland left.
Legal Eagle
20 Dec 2015 #293
Facing great number of Serbians within Polish army and having great inflow of new wave of Serbian refugees into the Ukraine/Russia because of Ottoman Turkish invasion (in period 14th-16th century most Serbian migrated to Poland, from 16th-18th century to Ukraine and Russia),

Thank you for this. It is more evidence disproving the myth of modern Ukraine as a historically ethnically homogeneous people occupied for a thousand years by oppressors. The truth is different from the nationalist propaganda.
Crow 146 | 9,112
20 Dec 2015 #294
What great opportunity? :D

if there was realistic and honest approach on borders of Ukraine that were drawn by communists, representatives of ethnic Ukrainians, Poles and Russians would sit at one international conference and get chance to peacefully resolve the issue.

But, western Europe and USA wanted to have entire Ukraine for themselves. So, they moved aggressively against Russian interests and, it proved to be impossible to them to scr** Russians. In the process, they fu*** entire opportunity for preemptive international conference that would take in account interests of all sides that live there and have historical right on territories. It was catastrophic blow onto Polish interests, not by Russia but exactly by the western Europe and USA. See, ethnic Ukrainians actually never had ethnic Ukrainian state. Nation was born in region what is called Ukraine. Then nation was named after Ukraine but region itself was native land for many other Slavs. Even Serbians gained right to be asked about future of the region.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Dec 2015 #295
Hmmm... Because the Poles built that city.

You can add Lwów to the list of things that you know nothing about. Anyone that's been to Lwów knows that the place was built by the Austrians, not the Poles. Let's not forget that the city itself was like Sarajevo - a mix of Jews, Poles and Ukrainians.

The most iconic building in L'viv - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Theatre_of_Opera_and_Ballet - is Austrian.

Right, because the peasant Ukrainian movement had no culture of its own so it had to steal a Polish city.

That's pretty disgusting racism, and it could only come from someone that has never been to Poland or L'viv.

The Poles never tried to force anyone to change their identities.

No, they just made them announce their religion and mother tongue and forbade them to discuss their nationality.
Crow 146 | 9,112
20 Dec 2015 #296
No, they just made them announce their religion and mother tongue and forbade them to discuss their nationality.

i don`t know for others but, Serbians (military and civil refugees due to Ottoman invasion) lived free in Poland, as they lived in their own country. They were received in Polish military and civil structures with equal rights to Poles. We don`t have a single historical record of violation of right of Serbs (known as Racowie in Poland, of which most were Orthodox and just few Catholics) by the Polish authorities. On the contrary, Serbians were most trustworthy man of Polish nobility and Kings.
Legal Eagle
20 Dec 2015 #297
The most iconic building in L'viv - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Theatre_of_Opera_and_Ballet - is Austrian.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

According to comunist era historiography Zygmunt Gorgolewski was born an Austrian in Poznan! We can always count on the clowns here for comic relief.

ROTFLMFAO!

On the contrary, Serbians were most trustworthy man of Polish lords.

Contrary to Soviet myth, the Poles offered religious freedom and had no problem with Orthodoxy per se. The richest man in Lwów was Orthodox. The problem they has was with Russian Orthodox Church being subservient to the Tsar. That was the problem, not Orthodoxy itself.

]See, ethnic Ukrainians actually never had ethnic Ukrainian state. Nation was born in region what is called Ukraine. Then nation was named after Ukraine but region itself was native land for many other Slavs.

Very True Crow. There is also a Krajina region in Croatia. The name is not original or specific to the modern state of Ukraine. The Ukrainian movement was a peasant movement which dovetailed nicely with communist propaganda. Ukrainian nationalists had little trouble switching from the Soviets to the Nazis and then back, and used both to assist ethnically cleansing the region of undesirables in their quest for ethnic purity. In their methods they surpassed the brutality of the Nazis themselves, murdering relatives, and children of "mixed" marriages. The shame of West in its complicity has helped keep the topic littler discussed until recently among Western academics.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
20 Dec 2015 #298
Zygmunt Gorgolewski was born an Austrian in Poznan

He was a Prussian citizen born in Schulitz, Province of Posen, to be exact. Glad I could help... :)
Legal Eagle
20 Dec 2015 #299
His name wasn't Horholevskiji either...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Dec 2015 #300
According to comunist era historiography Zygmunt Gorgolewski was born an Austrian in Poznan! We can always count on the clowns here for comic relief.

Not sure how to break it to you, but Lwów was very much Austrian at the time.

By your logic, the Saarinen terminal at JFK is Finnish and not American.


Home / History / Chance of Lwów once again became coming part of Poland
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.