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Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets?


OP MyMom  6 | 136  
2 Oct 2011 /  #61
It's much easier than admitting that Poles (and nominally Catholic ones, at that) were the ones who kept Poland in captivity.

Communism would never have worked in Poland if it wasn't for the masses of ordinary collaborating Poles.

Your are the kind who would claim that Poles murdered themselves at Katyn, if it weren't for the movie.
No chance in hell any communists would rule in Poland if it weren't for the regular Red Army units and NKVD forces. It is true though that the enslavement of Poland took part in phases. After all the bloodsheds from 1939 onwards, there was simply not enough opposition left so that the Polish stalinists could pretty much rule without Russians in the later years of stalinism.
delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
2 Oct 2011 /  #62
Your are the kind who would claim that Poles murdered themselves at Katyn, if it weren't for the movie.

Ah, gotta love the insults - you simply can't admit that Poles enslaved Poles, so instead, you choose to insult me. Typical.

No chance in hell any communists would rule in Poland if it weren't for the regular Red Army units and NKVD forces.

Of course not, but would they have managed to rule if Poles simply refused to work with the Communists?

As I said - there were a hell of a lot of people dependent on the Party - and they didn't object.
OP MyMom  6 | 136  
2 Oct 2011 /  #63
Of course not, but would they have managed to rule if Poles simply refused to work with the Communists?

Yes. You are very naive, or simply antipolish, when you underestimate Stalin like that. Just look at who "Polish officers" in Ludowe Wojsko Polskie were - initially 67% of them were Russians and Jews. How many of those remaining Polish officers were there simply because they got an offer they couldn't refuse?

Would it make you happy if the number of Polish victims of Soviet occupation was even higher?
delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
2 Oct 2011 /  #64
Yes. You are very naive, or simply antipolish, when you underestimate Stalin like that.

The fact remains that there were plenty of Poles who were perfectly happy to work with Stalin in the post WW2 era. I don't think it's any surprise that much of the Communist elite came from poor peasant backgrounds - people who saw their chance and seized it with both hands. They were Polish, nonetheless.

Just look at who "Polish officers" in Ludowe Wojsko Polskie were - initially 67% of them were Russians and Jews.

So 33% of them were Polish of presumably Catholic background. As I said - plenty of Poles were happy to go along with it.

How many of those remaining Polish officers were there simply because they got an offer they couldn't refuse?

Doesn't matter why they were there - they were still Polish, working for an enemy power to enslave their fellow countrymen.

Would it make you happy if the number of Polish victims of Soviet occupation was even higher?

What has that got to do with anything?

Don't forget, Poles killed Poles in most cases - not Russians or (gasp) Jews.
ShawnH  8 | 1488  
2 Oct 2011 /  #65
delphiandomine:Communism would never have worked in Poland if it wasn't for the masses of ordinary collaborating Poles.

.....

who realized that....

delphiandomine: the reality on the ground was that the Russians were always going to be firmly in control

OP MyMom  6 | 136  
2 Oct 2011 /  #66
Don't forget, Poles killed Poles in most cases - not Russians or (gasp) Jews.

Do you have any proof of that statement or is it yet another of your polonophobic BS, Michael? Although I like how you just confirmed what I suggested about you a post before.

The fact remains that there were plenty of Poles who were perfectly happy to work with Stalin in the post WW2 era. I don't think it's any surprise that much of the Communist elite came from poor peasant backgrounds - people who saw their chance and seized it with both hands. They were Polish, nonetheless.

How many? Care to prove your statement or yet another lie?

So 33% of them were Polish of presumably Catholic background. As I said - plenty of Poles were happy to go along with it.

So are you saying that plenty of Polish officers were happy to work for Stalin? Do you mind if I quote that statement of yours with your full name under it?

What has that got to do with anything?

That you would gladly accuse Poles of anything just because a majority of them survived both occupations. Well, even if all Poles were dead, you would still come up with some accusation, simply because the dead cannot defend themselves and thus are an easy target for a guy like you.
delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
2 Oct 2011 /  #67
Ah, let's just quote something...

Popiełuszko's murderers - Captain Grzegorz Piotrowski, Leszek Pękala, Waldemar Chmielewski and Colonel Adam Pietruszka

Poles were even at the level of murdering Polish priests. Sorry, but no matter how hard you try, it doesn't change the truth - Poles murdered Poles
Ironside  50 | 12435  
2 Oct 2011 /  #68
If Britain had refused to negotiate about Poland without Polish representatives being there, that would have suited Stalin just fine:

Maybe but then maybe not.

unelected military junta you mean?

No, I mean Polish legal Government supported by all Polish politicians and party;s, opposition as well. Hell, PM Sikorski was before the war member of opposition n Poland.

study something else sometimes than a lotus flower.
PWEI  3 | 612  
3 Oct 2011 /  #69
Ironsidemaybe not.

Maybe not? Yes, I can just see that conversation at the Yalta conference:
HMG representative: We demand that Polish government representatives be present while we discuss Poland.
Stalin: Not a problem, Osobka-Morawski is waiting outside.
Ironside  50 | 12435  
3 Oct 2011 /  #70
Maybe not? Yes, I can just see that conversation at the Yalta conference:
HMG representative: We demand that Polish governmen

In other words that have been no much for Stalin eh? Poor retarded creatures the best Britain could muster, miracle they survived till now, hallelujah!
Ozi Dan  26 | 566  
4 Oct 2011 /  #71
PWEI?

Why can't you learn that a lie constantly repeated does not become the truth: instead it simply is repeatedly exposed as a lie so that more and more people know that it is a lie.

Can someone tell me who this noob poster is please? He's carrying on like he has some issue with me. It's as though he's upset because I've owned him on several occasions in the past on this forum (viz Harry), but surely that can't be, because I've never communicated with this PWEI.

Could you please be so kind as to quote the parts of the relevant agreements which show that, given that the British and Americans had secured a promise from Stalin that there would be a Polish state and that there would be free and fair elections in Poland open to all parties other than the fascists, Poland’s independence was threatened. Either that or stop telling your latest pathetic lie.

I'd like to help you chief, but I just don't understand your question, as it makes no sense - i.e. it would be a strange agreement indeed that had parts showing independence being threatened. Perhaps rephrase it?

Actually, now I remember - there was an Aussie chap who called himself "Harry" on this forum (he hasn't been here in a while, having, one can only assume, exhausted himself online from a surfeit of self-important toast liberally smeared with lashings of figjam – or was that kebabs?) and we had some particularly interesting debates on this very topic some time ago. There's a wonderful feature on this site called "search" - you can look up our debates (yes, before you come back and say it, I know, I owned him in every genuine debate we had).

Which allied leader first proposed moving Poland’s borders to their current western location? Oh yes, it was General Władysław Sikorski.

Ah, we have a dilettante on Sikorski in our midst. Pray tell (as your knowledge on this would undoubtedly surpass mine), what was the rationale behind Sikorski's proposal here and what where the salient features of his proposal vis a vis how same could benefit Poland? Surely he didn't really mean to just give away parts of the Kresy with only a commensurate border shift to the West, as you imply? How did he go with putting this proposal to the Polish Govt in Exile? Did it ever progress beyond an ethereal pipe dream? Tally-ho, you’ve got some research to do…

But in your world Poland was unaware that her borders would change.

When, then, was Poland made aware of this, and by whom? If it was indeed HMG bearing the message in discharge of its obligations under Art. 5 of the Treaty in consequence of matters arising in respect of Teheran, then tarry not and send Harry a PM advising of same, as I'm sure he spent many a sleepless night fumbling through Wiki looking for this very same piece of evidence in rebuttal of my proposition.

Actually it is far simpler, it is as simple as can be; after all, what can be simpler than something which does not exist?

If this simply did not exist, then it is a simple matter to demonstrate that which existed, the existence of which would simply vindicate the rebuttal to the simple charge that HMG, simply put, betrayed Poland, when, to put it even more simply, a simple message of simplistic narrative, simplifying the simple outcomes of Teheran, simplistically delivered to the Poles, by simple minded people, was, to put it simply, never delivered. Simple no?
Chris R  1 | 34  
23 Jul 2012 /  #72
Perhaps you could be the one to explain why securing for Poland both the promises of free and fair elections and the movement of Poland's western borders to those first proposed by the Polish leader of the time is something which the British should be ashamed of?

You might ask the same question to former British PM Harold Macmillan, who famously wrote, ""No Englishman or American can read this record without a sense not only of sympathy, but of something like shame." Macmillan wrote these words in the forward of General Anders's memoir, An Army in Exile: The Story of the Second Polish Corps (Allied Forces Series):

These are the men who served time in the Soviet Gulags in Siberia, then returned to fight with the Brits in the West, did so even after learning of the betrayal of Polish-British prewar treaty out of loyalty to their Allied brothers-in-arms with whom they fought, and where then denied recognition in the British victory parade, so as not to offend Stalin.

In fairness to Macmillan, he was writing in the present tense when he wrote that forward to General Anders's book. Macmillan cannot be held accountable for the ignorance of modern Brits about the history of the war, since some inconvenient truths are omitted and other excuses made for the commitments which were clearly never kept.

The shame here consists of two distinct points: 1) the U.K. had betrayed Poland, and the other 2) that the U.K. left the Poles under Soviet control after the war. Citing the Yalta agreement does not address the first point, since the U.K. and France failed to honor their treaty agreements to attack the Germans within two weeks of an attack on Poland:

(See also, Count Edward Raczyński (1948). The British-Polish Alliance; Its Origin and Meaning. London: The Mellville Press.)

Did the Brits in fact lend "all support in their power" in September 1939 to Poland?

Someone please tell us how the Brits supported the Polish war effort against the Nazis in September 1939.

The fact remains that Hitler left Germany's Western border unguarded while he attacked Poland, but no Anglo-French attack was forthcoming. The French ate cheese and drank wine, while the Brits simply told Hitler, "Adolf, you are a very naughty boy." It is called "The Phoney War" for a reason.

Until the year 1939, we were, of course, in a position to destroy Poland alone. But we were never, either in 1938 or 1939, actually in a position to withstand a concentrated attack by these States together. And if we did not collapse in the year 1939, that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, roughly 110 French and British divisions in the West were completely inactive as against the 23 German divisions.

When I studied the issue, from several different perspectives in different courses, there wasn't a single professor or writer who questioned this point.

Since the RAF had dropped propaganda leaflets on German cities in 1939, they also could have dropped bombs, but of course, that is just my humble opinion. Since the British did nothing of note to help the Poles in September 1939, any help would have been useful. There is a reason that the press called the Western war, the "Phoney War", the "Bore War" and the "Sitzkrieg". Chuchill himself called in the "Twilight War", since Poland's Western allies did nothing to fulfill their treaty obligations.

The second point is that the U.K. had left the Poles under Soviet domination after the war:

So how many Poles would have fought in North Africa, Italy, the Western front, etc., defended the skies in the Battle of Britain, and fought on the seas from the start of the war to its finish if they had known what would eventually happen? The British government kept their agreements with the Soviets secret because it was well known the affect it would have on the Poles fighting side-by-side with the Anglo-American forces. Tell us how proud you limies are of that!

Citing the Yalta agreement is hardly dispositive of anything. It was the Tehran Confernce which had proposed using the Curzon Line as Poland's border with the USSR. However, there were in fact two Curzon Lines, A and B. Line B had kept Lwow inside the borders of Poland, and Lwow had been a Polish city for 600 years. Lwow best exemplifies what happened to Poland because of the war. The entire city is an unmarked crime scene of crimes against humanity on a massive scale: Ethnic cleansing of its Jews and Poles, forced deportations by an occupying power, and deprivation of freedom of religion to its Ukrainian speaking Catholics who were forced to renounce the Pope by Stalin. Nothing was done by the Brits and Americans to keep Lwow in Poland, and they did have sufficient leverage over Stalin during the war since the communist system by itself couldn't produce enough guns and trucks to win a war.

Please provide proof that a Polish leader had agreed to the border change, without Polish consent. Being open to negotiate a swap of land in Belarus or Volynia for German lands is not the same as having agreed to the annexation of cities which were Catholic with Polish speaking pluralities of their populations. No Polish leader could have agreed to that, and would not.
Harry  
23 Jul 2012 /  #73
Did the Brits in fact lend “all support in their power” in September 1939 to Poland?

You are claiming they didn't, so you need to go into detail about the things which Britain could have done but didn't do.

Hitler left Germany's Western border unguarded while he attacked Poland, but no Anglo-French attack was forthcoming.

He didn't: there were 22 battle ready German divisions left in heavily fortified positions. The French did launch an attack. There were no British forces in France with which to launch an attack; and at that point in time the British army had a grand total of nine battle ready divisions. Please try to tell the truth.

Since the RAF had dropped propaganda leaflets on German cities in 1939, they also could have dropped bombs

Please stop with the lies: the RAF did bomb targets in Germany. The loss rates on those missions were in region of one third of the planes. RAF planes also managed to bomb Denmark, which shows how well trained and war-ready they were.

Since the British did nothing of note to help the Poles in September 1939, any help would have been useful.

Why do you tell such ridiculous lies? Can you really be as ignorant as you would have to be to believe the rubbish which you come out with?!

As for what Britain did do: bombing raids, moving aircraft to forward bases (action taken before war was declared), 70% of the regular army sent to France (158,000 men sent by 11 October 1939), attempted naval blockade of Germany (partly lifted after, in first two weeks of war, one British aircraft carrier sunk by U-boat and a second escaping only due to a malfunctioning German torpedo). But I do look forward to you telling us all about all the things which Britain could have done but did not do.

Poland's Western allies did nothing to fulfill their treaty obligations.

No matter how many times you tell that lie, it still remains nothing more than a lie.
Hipis  - | 226  
23 Jul 2012 /  #74
Which allied leader first proposed moving Poland's borders to their current western location? Oh yes, it was General Władysław Sikorski.

I notice there was never a reply to this from Harry under his PWEI disguise but he's very quick to reply to Chris R so now that this thread is alive again maybe we can expect an reply to Ozi Dan's post :)
Harry  
23 Jul 2012 /  #75
I notice there was never a reply to this from Harry under his PWEI disguise but he's very quick to reply to Chris R

How interesting to see that you were not telling the truth about me being on your ignore list.

Anyway, do feel very very welcome address the question which all Poles (plastic and otherwise) always ignore: can you go into detail about the things which Britain could have done to help Poland in September of 1939 but didn't do.
Ironside  50 | 12435  
23 Jul 2012 /  #76
Anyway, do feel very very welcome address the question which all Poles (plastic and otherwise)

Harry, plastic is fantastic!
Harry  
23 Jul 2012 /  #77
You are also most welcome to address the issue of the things which Britain could have done to help Poland in September of 1939 but didn't do. But given the way that you have for a number of years avoided doing that, I'm pretty sure that you won't start to go into detail about what aid it was within Britain's power to give which was not given. I just wonder whether your reply to this post will consist purely of personal abuse or of lies or of a mixture of those things.
Ironside  50 | 12435  
23 Jul 2012 /  #78
the issue of the things which Britain could have done to help Poland in September of 1939 but didn't do. But given the way that you have for a number of years avoided doing that, I'm pretty sure that you won't start to go into detail about what aid it was within Britain's power to give

I already answered you but don't let this fact get in the way of your fantasy word.
Britain shouldn't have promised something they were not able to fulfil!
Harry  
23 Jul 2012 /  #79
I already answered you but don't let this fact get in the way of your fantasy word.

Really? Can you perhaps link to that answer? I have checked the search engine but can find only repeated posts in which you claim to have answered that question but none where you do go into detail about what Britain could have done but did not do.

Britain shouldn't have promised something they were not able to fulfil!

Britain promised to "at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power." So what did Britain promise to give but did not give?
sanddancer  2 | 50  
23 Jul 2012 /  #80
Why did the British people need to protest? Poland wasn't their country or infact thier problem. M

aybe the British still remembered Polish troops in various German divisions in World War One or Poles fighting with Napolean in the Napoleonic wars! In fact in History the Poles have fought against us on more then 1 occasion. I'm sure a fact that Churchill was fully aware of.
Ironside  50 | 12435  
23 Jul 2012 /  #81
Britain promised to "at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power." So what did Britain promise to give but did not give?

Like all the support and assistance in its power ?

Why did the British people need to protest?

Like Polish solders were the only allies they had during the Battle for Britain? Only allies in Force?
I guess bad memory is a blessing for self-esteem eh?>

In fact in History the Poles have fought against us on more then 1 occasion. I'm sure a fact that Churchill was fully aware of.

The thread is about British public not about Churchill. By the way Churchill have been fed BS by the British Intelligence infiltrated by Soviet agents.
Harry  
23 Jul 2012 /  #82
Like all the support and assistance in its power ?

So, for the umpteenth time, give us the details about what support and assistance it was within Britain's power to give but which was not given. But do remember that we all know you never will go into detail and that you know you cannot go into detail about it.
Ironside  50 | 12435  
23 Jul 2012 /  #83
But do remember that we all know you never will go into detail and that you know you cannot go into detail about it.

Not never but rarely. Especially when I debate you. Proven wrong you would just stop posting for a day or two and then revert to the argument already refuted.

I just cannot be bother.
Harry  
23 Jul 2012 /  #84
Not never but rarely. Especially when I debate you.

Rubbish. You never have and you never will.

I just cannot

If you'd left that sentence as having just those words, you'd be telling the truth.
Hipis  - | 226  
23 Jul 2012 /  #85
Proven wrong you would just stop posting for a day or two

Very true; as this thread cleary shows that when Harry, posting under his PWEI alias, refused to answer Ozi Dan back in October last year. Best thing to do is to put him on ignore and stop reading his posts :)
sanddancer  2 | 50  
23 Jul 2012 /  #86
Like Polish solders were the only allies they had during the Battle for Britain? Only allies in Force?
I guess bad memory is a blessing for self-esteem eh?>

Really... the Poles in the 'Battle of Britain' made up about 20% of the kills. Who made up the other 80%? Remember if the British hadn't have been so busy the germans would have had more time to complete it's untermensch policy!

The thread is about British public not about Churchill. By the way Churchill have been fed BS by the British Intelligence infiltrated by Soviet agents.

As i said before the British public had more to worry about at the time then Poland, who to be honest hadn't done Britain any favours in the past. Fact!

So then answer this question why doesn't Poland spend a little bit more preparing it's defences for the next invasion? It's spending on defence is woeful!

answer... it doesn't need to it'll hope for another round of help from the Imperialist British and the Americans.
Harry  
23 Jul 2012 /  #87
Very true; as this thread cleary shows that when Harry, posting under his PWEI alias, refused to answer Ozi Dan back in October last year. Best thing to do is to put him on ignore and stop reading his posts :)

Good to see that you also are completely unable to go into any detail at all about what aid it was within Britain's power to give to Poland in September 1939 which was not given, as is shown by your complete refusal to address the topic at all and your laughable attempts to draw me into off-topic personal abuse.

But, just on the off chance that you do fancy discussing the topic: what aid it was within Britain's power to give to Poland in September 1939 which was not given? How many years will we need to wait for you to answer that question and how many times will you lie about the answer? I wonder....
sanddancer  2 | 50  
23 Jul 2012 /  #88
what aid it was within Britain's power to give to Poland in September 1939 which was not given? How many years will we need to wait for you to answer that question and how many times will you lie about the answer? I wonder....

Let's blame the British for Polands complete lack of ability to be able to defend its borders!
Ironside  50 | 12435  
23 Jul 2012 /  #89
Really... the Poles in the 'Battle of Britain' made up about 20% of the kills. Who made up the other 80%?

You are forgetting about veteran soldiers defending Britain against expected invasion, who formed I Corps.

Remember if the British hadn't have been so busy the germans would have had more time to complete it's untermensch policy!

Are you kidding me? Britain have been on defensive until 1943, their first success was in the Northern Africa where Polish Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade were active since 1941. And Later in Italy where also Polish 2nd Corps landed.

Anyway Britain was heavily supported by the USA by the time.
My point is that all that mucking about didn't influence German policy in Poland.

As i said before the British public had more to worry about at the time then Poland, who to be honest hadn't done Britain any favours in the past. Fact!

It is not about favours it about promises, if you promise something and than you weasel your way out that promise the least honest and honourable thing to do, is to admit it.

Nobody would go about that if you could to just that,admit it, not ifs and buts.

So then answer this question why doesn't Poland spend a little bit more preparing it's defences for the next invasion? It's spending on defence is woeful!

Because Poland is a continental country without channel to hide behind it. Also Poland had only about 18 years to rebuild after the WWI and 120 years of partitions and lacked infrastructure and resources to build army stronger than Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany combined.

Yes, Poland in September 1939 had been invaded by Germany and Russia, the fact people like you tend to conveniently omit.
Poland against Soviets and Germany lasted longer than France and Britain combined in 1940 against only Germany.

it doesn't need to it'll hope for another round of help from the Imperialist British and the Americans.

The best policy for Poland would be to take Hitler's offer and join his axis alliance, not to believe in empty guarantees of some up-tight pricks without honour.
teflcat  5 | 1024  
23 Jul 2012 /  #90
Ironside. Do you live in the UK?

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