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Pieces of Real Polish History


Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #1
My Dad was born in 1919 in Warsaw, in a family of a soon-to-become gardener, an unqualified but literate Warsaw worker who took the opportunity of buying his piece of land by bank loan after the partition of large estates. The land of my Grandpa was located in Wawrzyszew on northern outskirts of Warsaw. My Dad took the opportunity of education, finishing a technical high-school, the funds for learning obtained from Mrs Piłsudska Foundation to promote talented school pupils. Just before the outbreak of WWII, my Dad was doing apprenticeship in a truck-construction company in Warsaw.

On September 1st, 1939, first Nazi bombs hit Warsaw, including the house of my grandparents and killing the horse. Vigorous fight took place between Polish and German troops nearby. Poles lost the battle and their graves can be found in the Wawrzyszew cemetery.

My Dad, as instructed by radio broadcast set off on his bicycle together with a group of local boys in the direction of Romania. As soon as the boys got into the former East Lesser Poland, Ukrainians robbed bicycles off the boys and they continued walking. On September 17th, 1939, the Soviet troops entered the area. The group was caught in a real estate of a Czech landowner. The Soviets asked the landowner who the boys were. The Czech said: "They are my farm-hands". "Show hands!" the Soviet soldier demanded. The boys showed the hands, and the hands were... black. If the hand had been white, the boys would be executed on spot as "panowie" (upper-class people). Irony was, the boys were industrial workers but every qualified worker wore protective hand-gloves at work, so the hands would be white. Yet, the hungry boys ate fresh walnuts the day before, the walnut juice making their hands black...

My Dad took the difficult way back home, and indeed he had to pass the German-Soviet border at peril of being shot down.

The winter 1939/1940 was hungry. The family had to eat another horse. Under Nazi occupation of Warsaw it was hard to find work. Around 1941, my Dad was making money by trading used clothes at the Kercelak market in Warsaw. The market was surrounded by Nazi soldiers and my Dad was caught in the round-up. He was transferred to Germany as a slave labourer. The history of his stay in Germany, surviving coal mine, his escape from coal mine and his capture by Gestapo, roof repairs in bombarded Essen, surviving massive Ally bombardment of Essen where the river burned, his escape from Essen and pretending to be someone else to find better job, his liberation by the British in 1945, his D.P. fate in after-war Germany, his immigration to Australia via UK, and his return to Poland in 1957 could make a good novel.

My Mum was born in 1922 in Peczeniżyn (Pechenizhyn) near to Horodenka, Stanisławów (Ivano-Frankovsk) voivodship, near to the Romanian border of the era. My Granpa was a car-driver at local Polish administration and my Grandma was a Polish teacher. After the occupation by Soviets in 1939, things started happening. In 1941, the local Polish population, especially clerk, teacher, generally intelligentsia families went to the Soviet proscription lists, to be exiled to Siberia. Two uncles and an aunt were met by this fate. Both uncles died in Soviet Union, and the aunt returned, mentally ill and died soon. My Mother's family was on the exile lists for June 1941. Before that happened, Nazis attacked Soviet Union on June 22nd, 1941. My Grandpa was working as the driver for the Soviet administration at the time. When panicked Soviet officer run out the building, shouting and waving his pistol, Granpa pretended the engine had broke. He might get shot, yet the officer requisitioned a horse cart and escaped. My family avoided certain death in Siberia, saved by... Germans.

My mother did not want to talk on next years only describing those as a "dark era". Once she told me about her friend, a lovely Jewish girl that disappeared some day, apparently killed or taken away by... who knows? Ukrainian nationalists? Nazi? My Mother never wanted to go to back to see her homeland again, even if such possibility existed after 1989.

After WWII, the remaining family was expatriated to Wrocław, Bydgoszcz, £ódź. My Mother after graduating in microbiology settled in Warsaw and met my Dad in 1957 there.

What I have described are fates of just two Poles, and we could talk about millions of different fates. I'm not a nationalist, racist, or hater. I've seen a great part of the world, survived the commie rule in Poland. I can only see that history is making turns over and over. People forget. People only can read. People form their opinions based on the information chaos of the Internet. And they never learn.

No need to get personal

Not planning on moving anymore posts. Please keep it on topic, there is no reason to make another forum member the point of your thread. If you have something to say, do it through a PM.
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
16 Jun 2011 #2
who cares, Antek, about whether you approve of them or not?

so what, you think you have some kind of monopoly on a family who went through some historical times, while everyone else somehow grew up ignorant of their roots? everyone has generations' worth of family histories, inescapably affected by historical events one way or another. and yet, you claim

People form their opinions based on the information chaos of the Internet. And they never learn.

. don't you think it makes you look ignorant?
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #3
Don't you think I have learned the history enough to understand that racism, nationalism, reactionary views, hate spreading lead to nowhere?

Do you have to say anything on topic?
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #4
OCTOBER REVOLUTION TO RUSSIA AND INDEPENDENCE OF POLAND

Let's address to the documents accepted in the first days of revolution, — to the Decree on peace from October, 26th (on November, 8th) 1917 and the Declaration of the rights of the people of Russia from November, 2nd (15), 1917. In the first certificate — in the general plan, and in the second — in a legislative order “the right of all people of Russia (including Polish) on free self-management more particularly was fixed up to branch and formation of the independent state”. It is necessary to underline unique character of the similar declaration: accurately formulated position about the right of each nation to the statehood, accepted by the higher legislative and executive powers of any country, at that time simply didn't exist.

Thus, already in the first days of the Russian revolution the legal base for formation of the independent Polish state has been created. As to other powers participating in world war their positions in the Polish question looked much weaker and lost in comparison with the aforementioned Decree and the Declaration.

The known Austro-German certificate from November, 5th, 1916 about the future Poland and her borders had the extremely uncertain and unessential character, at the best he provided an autonomy of the Polish earths which were as a part of Russia, but didn't concern the Polish territories which have departed to Germany and Austro-Hungary as a result of sections of Poland. France and Great Britain, truth, have already started to tend to a reconstruction of independent Poland, but to formulate the position on this question, moreover at high official level while abstained.

October revolution in Russia has objectively led to internationalization of the Polish question of that always was afraid and constantly imperial diplomacy tried to avoid. Similar internationalization, undoubtedly, has done good to idea of a reconstruction of the Polish state though the question on independence of Poland basically has already been solved by October revolution.

The impartial analysis shows that is necessary to reckon also with variety of other factors which have predetermined a birth of independent Poland. Except October revolution and the certificates accepted by her great value had defeat in war of powers — participants of sections of Poland — Germany, Austro-Hungary and, in a sense, Russia, and also the support rendered to Poland about parties Antanty and the USA. However the major factor was, undoubtedly, powerful aspiration of the most Polish people to a reconstruction of the state and presence in the country and behind her limits of the Polish political forces, ready to realize national expectations.

It is necessary to refer to one basic document which, in our opinion, also has served its purpose in legal formation of the Polish state. It is the decree of Council of National Commissioners of RSFSR from August, 29th, 1918 about refusal of contracts of Russia with Germany and Austro-Hungary about sections of Poland.Article 3 of this decree accepted still before formation of the Polish Republic in November, 1918, proclaimed:

All contracts and the certificates concluded by the government of the former Russian empire with the governments of Kingdom Prussian and Austro-Hungarian empire, concerning sections of Poland, in view of their contradiction to a principle of self-determination of the nations and revolutionary sense of justice of the Russian people which have recognized behind the Polish people an inalienable law to independence and unity, — are cancelled by the present irrevocably.

However the further succession of events by tritely such way that Russia owing to the developed circumstances has appeared removed from active participation in the Polish affairs: as a result of signing with Germany the Brest world, civil war, foreign military intervention, economic and diplomatic blockade.

Despite it, it is necessary to note variety of steps on the Polish affairs, undertaken by the Soviet government in the first year of the existence which great value for Poland was showed later, in performance of decisions of the Riga peace treaty of 1921.

In the conditions of the most complicated internal political and country world situation it is created the National commissariat on affairs of the Polish nationality from J.Leshchinsky in head (the decree from November, 28th (on December, 11th) 1917), vigorous measures under the account and preservation of the Polish cultural values which have appeared for the various reasons in territory of Russia, mainly as a result of military operations are taken. The majority of the documents accepted in that time on this point in question are published in known collections. We will be limited to reduction of the text of the basic document — the decree from January, 17th (30), 1918 in which the valid relation of the new power of Russia to the Polish people first of all was showed.

The decree
About protection of subjects of olden time and art,
Belonging to the Polish people

In view of that in the western and northwest provinces of the Russian Republic, in many cities and manors of persons of the Polish nationality there are the subjects having exclusive value for the Polish people, and the majority of these subjects has been taken out from Poland during deviation of Russian armies and earlier, the Council of National Commissioners for returning of these subjects perfectly safe to all Polish people — decides and for a management of subject revolutionary powers declares the following:

1. Subjects of olden time and art, library, archives, pictures and in general museum subjects where they were, accepted as the national property of the Polish people under protection of the power of the Working and Country Government in the name of the Commissariat on the Polish Affairs and Societies охранения antiquities before transfer to their Polish national museums.

2. About acceptance under protection of the above-named subjects statements, and the certificate about voluntary transfer to the Polish museums of the subjects which are in the Polish manors are drawn up, the owner of manor or him on that authorized person signs with own hand. The certificate is made in duplicate: one of them is stored in the Polish Commissariat at the Council of National Commissioners, the second — in Petrograd Department of the Polish Society охранения antiquities — the official representative in Russia Polish art and historical societies.

3. Except certificates the exact inventory of transferred subjects in 4 copies is made, and one copy remains at the owner, another — in the Commissariat on the Polish Affairs, the third — in a regional commissariat on protection of ancient monuments or in bureau of the nearest executive office of the union of military men of Poles, the fourth — in Society Board охранения antiquities in Petrograd.

4. For drawing up of certificates and inventories and for realization of the real decree, and equally control over observance of that on places, the Polish Commissariat appoints special regional commissioners with powers of Commissioners of the Working and Country Government.

5. All mentioned organizations and persons work in contact to local revolutionary powers in the name of local Councils of Soldier's, Working and Country Deputies by which it is made a duty to render full assistance in protection on places and transportations of the Polish cultural values.

The chairman of the council of National Commissioners
Вл. Ulyanov (Lenin)
The national Commissioner on Education
A. V.Lunacharsky
The commissioner on the Polish National Affairs
J.Leschinsky
Operating affairs of Council of National Commissioners
V.Bonch-Bruevich*
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #5
OCTOBER REVOLUTION TO RUSSIA AND INDEPENDENCE OF POLAND

Your point to quote this document is?
David_18 68 | 982
16 Jun 2011 #6
Nice family history you got there :)

@Pro_Svet_Spb
Please stop Ctrl+c Ctrls+v everything you find on the internet and actually start to contribute something to this forum.

And your Russian translating program is junk...
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #7
And your Russian translating program is junk...

You Hate the Russians and Russia? Anything about Russia from you - is sh*it and junk....

All the documents i posted was as they are... Translation program is not perfect i know, my English is not that great as your guys, so i just do my best as a Russian...
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #8
Soon after publishing the paper as quoted by Pro_Svet, Red Russia attacked Poland. Period.
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #9
Your point to quote this document is?

That maybe USSR was any good for you...

The Soviet party has rendered the big technical help in formation of the Polish heavy industry, shipbuilding, oil, gas, chemical, motor industry, in building of the numerous industrial enterprises (from above 150 in 1948-1981). Their number includes, in particular, metallurgical industrial complexes in Krakow and Katovitsah, factory of the qualitative alloyed steels "Warsaw", oil refining industrial complex in Plock, car factories in Warsaw and Lublin, a number of power stations, the underground in Warsaw and etc. For 1981 fuel-raw deliveries made 38 % of import of Poland of the USSR in this area. Import requirements of Poland for oil, gas and pig-iron were satisfied with deliveries from the USSR on 100 %, oil products — on 68 %, iron ore — on 85 %, manganese ore — on 88 %, a clap — on 60 %.

Taking into account the above-stated Poland, in our opinion, in the mentioned years there are no bases to consider as “a province of empire of Stalin”. Poland, being in the Soviet sphere of influence and under protection of the USSR, had the person both in the country, and on international scene.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #10
Please, Pro_Svet:
1. I have lived for 28 years in the country "made happy" by Soviet Union, the country occupied by the Red Army, the country where Polish WWII liberty fighters were being killed, tortured and imprisoned by Soviet Union. The country kept slave by the Soviet Union 1944-1989. The Soviet system is recognized by Polish Law as criminal one - kept equal with the Nazi system, and if this Forum were Polish, your posts would be removed and you would be permanently banned.

2. Part of my family was killed by Soviets.

3. Soviet Russia declared independence of Poland after WWI and very soon attacked Poland in hope of spreading global revolution.
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #11
Soon after publishing the paper as quoted by Pro_Svet, Red Russia attacked Poland. Period.

Well it's a bad part of our history... I just trying to be positive ))))))))

your posts would be removed and you would be permanently banned.

If this is a free forum and everyone have different point of view?....

I'm not trying to hurt you guys,

this Forum were Polish

Very aggressive..

No Russians allowed to tell what information they have?

2. Part of my family was killed by Soviets.

I feel very sorry for that...
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #12
If this is a free forum and everyone have different point of view?....

This is -- unluckily -- an American forum.

I'm telling you clearly: The level of calamities caused by the Soviet system to Poland and Polish people resulted in declaring the Soviet ideology criminal by the Law of the Republic of Poland, equally with the Nazi system. The difference between Germany and Russia is that Germany had already had a long period of settling accounts with their history, while Russia has never done it.

Let me make it clear for you: In Poland, spreading your views is a criminal activity, for which you could even be imprisoned.
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #13
spreading your views

I never said that my point of view, i do my own research from your side and your opinion is important to know your truth...
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #14


This is what Polish youth thought about the "goodness' of Soviet Union over 30 years ago (audio). I could not find good imagery for that video because... Communism is banned in Poland. Do you understand me now, Pro_Svet?

You are not allowed publicly talk on Communism in Poland. You can do research. For your own knowledge, I would recommend reading Solzenitsyn books, in Russian.
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #15
Solzenitsyn books, in Russian.

I have it, but it is more important talk to the people what they know from the real life....

From your point of view what the Russian government should do that we have good relations between our nations?
The USSR is no more...
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
16 Jun 2011 #16
You are not allowed publicly talk on Communism in Poland.

are you sure ?

i know there was a move to ban symbols
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #17
Please read the Polish Law.
The Communism is banned exactly the same way as the Nazism is. Symbols, literature, pictorial material, spreading views. Research is allowed but it is not a public forum where you do the research; libraries and archives serve such purposes. The Law was updated together with establishing the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej.

To make my previous statement clear (my previous post): You can speak about the Communism but you must not promote it. In the light of the above, the posts of Svet praising Communism are banned in Poland.

The Monument of The Exiled to Siberia, Warsaw, Poland.

I can only tell you personally: Do not promote Communism and I'm am happy.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
16 Jun 2011 #18
The Soviet party has rendered the big technical help in formation of the Polish heavy industry,

nobody asked them ......
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #19
the posts of Svet praising Communisms are banned in Poland.

OMG, if something was good at that time and it is prohibited to say by law, then it's like a brainwash, no free speech, totalitarian... you can say BAD - that is allowed...

Guys this is a part of your history- to make it ***secret***, same mistake as USSR does when you can't say any good for Russia before the revolution?

Our countries will never get together on that point...or some one don't want that we are friends?

I can only tell you personally: Do not promote Communism and I'm am happy.

Ok, i understand your point....
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #20
Our countries will never get together on that point...or some one don't want that we are friends?

Our people, I mean Russians and Poles can get along well until some Svet comes and starts a ramble on Lenin...

Did you know that August 15th was a national holiday in Poland, dedicated to the Polish victory over Bolsheviks in 1920, in defense of our capital city Warszawa?
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
16 Jun 2011 #21
starts a ramble on Lenin

Did i ? I hate Communism as well, but it's our history and we have to be able to see the good not only negative.....
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
17 Jun 2011 #22
Antek_Stalich: starts a ramble on Lenin

Did i ? I hate Communism as well, but it's our history and we have to be able to see the good not only negative.....

What good?!
You start with the decree of Lenin and omit the Soviet Russian invasion on Poland in 1920.
You omit the Katyn and Ostaszkow Massacre.
You omit stealing half of Poland's pre-war territories by Soviet Union and "giving" us big part of German territories that were not ours.

You omit the tough oppression of Poles post-WWII during the Stalin era.
You talk about the economic input of Soviet Union and forget that the Soviet Union "input" into Poland led to such economic collapse here that Polish Commies had to yield power.

You omit the Soviet occupation of Poland for 44 years.

What "good" did the Soviets do to Poland? Don't you think that Poles would manage better off themselves, especially taking into account it was not Soviets who rebuilt Warsaw after WWII but Poles? The only "input" of Soviets into Warsaw was that monstrous Palace of Culture and Science after Joseph Stalin and that ugly MDM quarter. The Soviets were even incapable to build Metro in Warsaw.

Svet, take my advice: Should you ever come to Poland, behave as a normal, contemporary Russian person, and you will feel good in Poland. Shall you, however, tell Polish people what you are telling me now, prepare stretchers.
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
17 Jun 2011 #23
You omit the Katyn

WW2 - The other side. What USSR, also that the Polish government has made not to admit WW2

On April, 8th, 2010 became one of the most shameful days in contemporary history of Russia. Acting in Poland on the occasion of an anniversary of Katynsky tragedy, the prime minister of Russia Vladimir Putin named guilty of her heads of security service of that time and People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs, including Lavrentija Beriju, and also the political country leaders, accurately hinting at Joseph Stalin.

There is so many bad words said about Russia and just to give you my advice : if you are not judge your country as you judge Russia for what they done to the others you are blind then. Poland is innocent by you....

Sorry if i hurt anyone...
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
17 Jun 2011 #24
Can you tell me, Svet, why you did copy and paste that hypocritical decree of Lenin just after my post in which I had tried to explain my mother-side family miraculously avoided extermination by Soviets (with two uncles actually killed by Soviets and an aunt made insane by the Soviets), and my Dad also miraculously avoided execution by Soviet soldiers who "liberated West Ukraine"?
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
17 Jun 2011 #25
Can you tell me, Svet, why you did copy and paste that hypocritical decree of Lenin just after my post

You right, that was stupid, not the right thread, my apologies...

Here, in Poland Russia looks like a bloody monster...that hurts...
David_18 68 | 982
17 Jun 2011 #26
You Hate the Russians and Russia? Anything about Russia from you - is sh*it and junk....

Untill Russia starts to behave like a normal country i wont have any respect to the country nor the people. And why the people? since the people "elects" its govement in Russia and they always elect some dumbass emperialistic swein...

Our people, I mean Russians and Poles can get along well until some Svet comes and starts a ramble on Lenin...

Not really. Russia has been Polands nemesis since the 14'th century.

Antek_Stalich:
starts a ramble on Lenin

Did i ? I hate Communism as well, but it's our history and we have to be able to see the good not only negative.....

A shamefull history that should be forgoten and never spoke on again in my opinion.

Sorry if i hurt anyone...

I do understand you though... You came to this forum and started to write about Soviet and Russia without the knowlege about how much Poles hate what Russia represent. I hope you will enjoy this forum even though you had a harsh start :)

Btw what is your connection to Poland?
rybnik 18 | 1,461
17 Jun 2011 #27
My Mum was born in 1922 in Peczeniżyn (Pechenizhyn) near to Horodenka, Stanisławów (Ivano-Frankovsk) voivodship, near to the Romanian border of the era

My mom was born in Stanisławów in 1924. She too never wanted to go back. She told some horrendous stories re the Ukrainians.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
17 Jun 2011 #28
The Communism is banned exactly the same way as the Nazism is.

Which, to be fair, I think is absolutely absurd.

(the block on youtube is particuarly grating, especially when you find that some things like Communist propoganda films get blocked)
Pro_Svet_Spb 1 | 41
17 Jun 2011 #29
Btw what is your connection to Poland?

My grandfather was a half Polish, he was a guard of the last Russian Tsar in winter palace...i even have some pictures....
First time a came to forum when your president's plane was crushed to write a words of condolences....

Are you living in Russia?

grandfather

great-grandfather
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
17 Jun 2011 #30
Dont worry too much,a native english speaker can kind of figure out what you are trying to say but maybe it is slightly harder if english is a second tongue?


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