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Lithuanians hate Poles?



delphiandomine 80 | 15,938    
10 Jan 2012  #61

Spoken like a true North American ignorant person.

You haven't got a clue what's going on in Lithuania - you haven't even got a clue what kind of discrimination takes place in Poland against the Lithuanian minority.

But actually - what you've described is exactly what the Poles have done there. They want to keep their place, so their political leaders have managed to whip them into a frenzy - making it seem like Lithuania hates them, blah blah blah. It's all petty political point scoring.

(ask yourself, if you're so knowledgable - why are Lithuanians prevented in Poland from giving their children certain Lithuanian names?)


Ironside 43 | 8,206    
10 Jan 2012  #62

You haven't got a clue what's going on in Lithuania

And you do ! Why don't you illuminate us all?
delphiandomine 80 | 15,938    
10 Jan 2012  #63

Ask yourself why Lithuanian children aren't allowed to be named freely in Poland.
rozumiemnic 9 | 3,335    
10 Jan 2012  #64

so is it true that you can only name your kid certain names in Poland?
for example if I wanted to call my baby...say...Tallulah....? (hypothetically.;)
and if that is the case, what about immigrants' kids?
Harry 78 | 13,521    
10 Jan 2012  #65

Yes, there is indeed a list of approved names in Poland and Poles can pick only from those names. But when one parent its not Polish, other names can be used, provided that girls' names end with an a and that only Polish diacritics are used.
delphiandomine 80 | 15,938    
10 Jan 2012  #66

so is it true that you can only name your kid certain names in Poland?

Basically, it's up to the discretion of the person doing the registering. But - there is a general principle that names must be in accordance with Polish grammatical norms - so females must have names ending in "a". There's no law anymore about "approved" names - but you might find that the registar demands it to be spelt in accordance with Polish spelling norms.

Hence - a Lithuanian living in Poland will be refused the name "Roze" because the Polish variant is "Roza".

And even worse - say for instance, you want to name your child AGNÉ. You can't - because you can't register using the proper e.

(plenty of stupid Polish-spelling English names though)
rozumiemnic 9 | 3,335    
10 Jan 2012  #67

cheers harry and delph...
amazing really, so she would have to be Tąllulą?
and if someone said....olix to that, I will call her....Rhiannon...? What then? A fine???
Oh OK, they would just refuse to register?
Ironside 43 | 8,206    
10 Jan 2012  #68

Ask yourself why Lithuanian children aren't allowed to be named freely in Poland.

Bah ! Polish children aren't allowed to be named freely in Poland. I wouldn't call that discrimination would you ?
I fully support your right (and anybody's for the matter) to name your children as you like for example -Ixazalvoh.

Nevertheless naming children is only secondary issue, the right to educate your children in your own language is something that minorities in Poland enjoy freely and Poles in Lithuania do not.

I call that discrimination - what says you?
eh?

You haven't got a clue what's going on in Lithuania

Ask yourself why Lithuanian children aren't allowed to be named freely in Poland.

Nicely done !
You haven't answered my question.
What is going on in Lithuania ?Assuming you have got a clue. You must otherwise you wouldn't have called some poster - an ignorant person.

You are Mr nice guy, right ?
BBman - | 358    
10 Jan 2012  #69

poken like a true North American ignorant person.

You haven't got a clue what's going on in Lithuania - you haven't even got a clue what kind of discrimination takes place in Poland against the Lithuanian minority.

But actually - what you've described is exactly what the Poles have done there. They want to keep their place, so their political leaders have managed to whip them into a frenzy - making it seem like Lithuania hates them, blah blah blah. It's all petty political point scoring.

(ask yourself, if you're so knowledgable - why are Lithuanians prevented in Poland from giving their children certain Lithuanian names?)

ohhh look here we have another limey expert - this time one that specializes in lithuania, but doesnt live there nor has he ever. I lived and worked in poland for a few years and i can say that there is not that much discrimination. theres far more discrimination in lithuania vs poles and russians than in poland vs lithuanians.

as for non-polish names? who cares
never heard of that law anyway
gumishu 10 | 4,445    
10 Jan 2012  #70

Hence - a Lithuanian living in Poland will be refused the name "Roze" because the Polish variant is "Roza".

does this prevent Lithuanians in Poland in calling their children with Lithuanian names in speech - I don't think so - or maybe they actually don't talk Lithuanian at home actually - like this supposed German minority in Poland who mostly speak Polish in their every day lives even at home (I know of people who are active and high in the minority organizations and are just like that)

btw isn't Polish policy identical to the US policies in the past when your Franciszeks and Andrzejs became Francises and Andrews on entering the US

and when you criticise Polish diacritics policy do you know of any European country that does even a bit better - can Polish ą's ę's ś's ń's be included in your personal documents in the Czech Republic, Germany, the UK??? - if anything this would have to be a pan-European change - and then still problematic issues arise like Greek or Cyrillic alphabet - how your average Polish, German or British police officer is supposed to know how to read documents in these - maybe we should even exert pressure on those EU countries that use scriptures other than Latin to adopt Latin script for the sake of pan-European personal documents (one needs to weigh the pros and costs of such a policy)
Medis - | 17    
10 Jan 2012  #71

gumishu

does this prevent Lithuanians in Poland in calling their children with Lithuanian names in speech - I don't think so - or maybe they actually don't talk Lithuanian at home actually - like this supposed German minority in Poland who mostly speak Polish in their every day lives even at home (I know of people who are active and high in the minority organizations and are just like that)

delphiandomine wanted to point out that Poland have restrictions for name writing in passports. While it easily accuses Lithuania for not letting to write Polish names in Polish alphabet.
gumishu 10 | 4,445    
10 Jan 2012  #72

you should take into account the scales - there are some 10 000 Lithuanians in Poland for almost 40 million Polish citizens - it's not per cents it's not even pro mille - while Polish minority in Lithuania is more than 5 per cent of the whole Population - the cost of technical updates so that 10 000 of people can have their names written as they please is pretty big for Poland (you would have to change all the public software so it handles this - this goes into millions of copies and it all costs) - now what do the authorities of Lithuania do - they not only write your name in Lithuanian letters but they also feel compelled to add Lithuanian suffixes to all these Polish names and perhaps even alter its spelling (and pronounciation) (if you are named Brzozowski you suddenly become Brazauskas - it is not quite acceptable for someone who wants to uphold his/her national identity) - now that also creates problems if the person is travelling to Poland as they also have Polish documents (Karta Polaka) that bear their names in Polish
Ironside 43 | 8,206    
10 Jan 2012  #73

f you are named Brzozowski you suddenly become Brazauskas - i

Whereas if your name is Brazauskas there is no problem in printing it like that in Poland.
It shouldn't be a problem for Lithunians to print Brzozowski.
gumishu 10 | 4,445    
10 Jan 2012  #74

It shouldn't be a problem for Lithunians to print Brzozowski.

exactly
piktoonis - | 86    
10 Jan 2012  #75

No one forces you to be Brazaukas, you can be Brzozovski (w is not in lithuanian aphabet). Lithuanian suffixes are not a must. I have plenty of neighbors who have their surnames ending -ski, -in, -ko and other.
gumishu 10 | 4,445    
10 Jan 2012  #76

well I was not aware of that (if it is a typical thing) - I was just judging on the basis of the regular Lithuanian surnames (which have been in many instances just artificially Lithuanised)
Medis - | 17    
10 Jan 2012  #77

gumishu

Names are written as they sound in Lithuanian language as it is official Language in the state. Lithuania add suffixes (as does Poland) but the names stem doesn't change it ( - according piktoonis it is not practiced) . Spelling of the name is not changed - it is just written in Lithuanian. I don't know all the details about name writing but it is not so drastic as you wrote.

There are some discussions of adding another line for name to write it in it's original form (I don't know about the alphabet in this case.).

(if you are named Brzozowski you suddenly become Brazauskas - it is not quite acceptable for someone who wants to uphold his/her national identity

Interesting. Such surname change was done by Lithuanian authorities or it's just your example?

Ironside

Whereas if your name is Brazauskas there is no problem in printing it like that in Poland.
It shouldn't be a problem for Lithunians to print Brzozowski.

It is. We do not have w in our alphabet and names are written in Lithuanian.
piktoonis - | 86    
10 Jan 2012  #78

I was just judging on the basis of the regular Lithuanian surnames (which have been in many instances just artificially Lithuanised)

When independence was declared, it was common to lithuanize surnames, but still people had choice (my neighbor experienced that), few years later, no one continued that practice. If your surname is russian, it will stay the same, except for lithuanian letters.
Medis - | 17    
10 Jan 2012  #79

By the way Brazauskas is surname of Lithuanian origin and not Lithuanised version of Brzozovski. Even it sounds pretty differently.
gumishu 10 | 4,445    
10 Jan 2012  #80

(if you are named Brzozowski you suddenly become Brazauskas - it is not quite acceptable for someone who wants to uphold his/her national identity

Interesting. Such surname change was done by Lithuanian authorities or it's just your example?

it's what lithuanisation of some surnames of Polish origin has produced in the years of independence of Lithuania between the wars (1918-1939) - scores of surnames of the Polish type (I don't say all who bore them were ethnically Polish but many were - see

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_%28region%29

were artificially Lithuanised (Brzozowski became Brazauskas and so on) and it was forceful (noone ever asked those affected)

By the way Brazauskas is surname of Lithuanian origin and not Lithuanised version of Brzozovski. Even it sounds pretty differently.

an so is Mickieviczius??? (I don't have diacrytics at hand - it's not out of disrespect for Lithuanian ortography that I use 'cz' )

-skas - is a Lithuanisation of -ski suffix which is Slavonic and not present in Lithuanian language as far as I know - correct me if I am wrong
Ironside 43 | 8,206    
10 Jan 2012  #81

It is. We do not have w in our alphabet and names are written in Lithuanian.

So I understand that you could print Brzozovski instead, right ?
Medis - | 17    
10 Jan 2012  #82

gumishu

it's what lithuanisation of some surnames of Polish origin has produced in the years of independence of Lithuania between the wars (1918-1939)

That explains everything. Yes, between the world wars nationalism was booming in Europe.
Older people tell stories when one brother decided that he will be Pole and another one Lithuanian. Mixed period :)
piktoonis - | 86    
10 Jan 2012  #83

So I understand that you could print Brzozovski instead, right ?

I don't see why it couldn't be written.
Harry 78 | 13,521    
10 Jan 2012  #84

were artificially Lithuanised (Brzozowski became Brazauskas and so on) and it was forceful (noone ever asked those affected)

Do you have any reliable sources about that?
gumishu 10 | 4,445    
10 Jan 2012  #85

were artificially Lithuanised (Brzozowski became Brazauskas and so on) and it was forceful (noone ever asked those affected)
Do you have any reliable sources about that?

As Lithuania firmly established its independence and nationalistic attitudes strengthened, the state sought to increase the use of Lithuanian language in the public life.[22] Among the measures taken by the Lithuanian government was a forced Lithuanization of non-Lithuanian names.[23] The largest minority school network was operated by Jewish community. In 1919 there were 49, in 1923 - 107, in 1928 - 144 Jewish grammar schools.[18] In 1931, in part due to consolidations, the number of schools decreased to 115 and remained stable until 1940.[18]

this is an excerpt of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanization
Harry 78 | 13,521    
10 Jan 2012  #86

this is an excerpt

Hmm, having clicked through the links, I have a question: know many Germans called Brzozowski do you?
gumishu 10 | 4,445    
10 Jan 2012  #87

know many Germans called Brzozowski do you?

are you suggesting all those Bukaskases, Makauskases, Prunskases, Vollovicziuses, Marcinkievicziuses were German?

I have seen surnames of Polish origin ( in -ski) in Germany if you ask - perhaps not Brzozowski surname
piktoonis - | 86    
10 Jan 2012  #88

What kind of surname endings (-ses) are these?
delphiandomine 80 | 15,938    
10 Jan 2012  #89

ohhh look here we have another limey expert - this time one that specializes in lithuania, but doesnt live there nor has he ever. I lived and worked in poland for a few years and i can say that there is not that much discrimination. theres far more discrimination in lithuania vs poles and russians than in poland vs lithuanians.

Oh look, we have another North American who failed in Poland and has a big chip on his shoulder as a result.

Did you ever live/work in a Lithuanian gmina? Did you ever have contact with the Lithuanian minority? Naaaaw. Didn't think so.

As for "more discrimination in Lithuania" - really? Based on what? Your local "Polonia Kielbasa Pierogies" newspaper doesn't count.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,297    
10 Jan 2012  #90

Did you ever live/work in a Lithuanian gmina? Did you ever have contact with the Lithuanian minority? Naaaaw. Didn't think so.

Asking a forum member questions and then immediately answering for him.....This seems like the behavior of someone who is losing his mind or may have already lost it.

Your local "Polonia Kielbasa Pierogies" newspaper doesn't count.

Believing in imaginary newspapers isn't a good sign either.




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