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The heroic jump of the 1st Polish Independent Paratrooper Brigade


Easy_Terran 3 | 312
28 Mar 2010 #31
Grzegorz_: the most famous (140 m^2) barn

time means: WTF?

jonni: You certainly keep mentioning it.

I concure with Grzegorz. Lately I have been discussing this and that with the greatest beings ever and that barn was thrown right into my face like leaves during Polish Golden Autumn.
jonni 16 | 2,485
28 Mar 2010 #32
Grzegorz_: Sometimes I do, fitting 1600 people into a 140 m^2 barn is no a small achievement, don't you think ?

Indeed. However since there's no suggestion that any of them were independent paratroopers, I suggest you stop burbling on about it here and instead attempt to discuss it in one of the many other threads you have introduced it to.
grubas 12 | 1,390
28 Mar 2010 #33
Ironside: they should have jumped over Warsaw.

They wanted to.check the link I posted.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
29 Mar 2010 #34
jonni: Not a day goes by, however, on this forum without someone banging on (often in a nasty way) about perceived geopolitical injustices, seventy, yes - seventy, years ago; long before most of the posters here were born.

How about applying some of this analytical genius and responding to what I proposed to you in a previous thread regarding the backstab at Teheran? You seem quite keen on jumping in threads where Poles discuss WW2 with Harry-esque style negative quips about Poland. The fact that you continue to do this suggests you're just another Pommie-come-lately who himself needs to get a life - if these threads offend you sense of relevance and propriety, then the answer is simple: don't read them, and leave us to live in the past.

The fact that these events occurred 70 years ago is neither here nor there. They are still within living memory and they are topics which are relevant to some and feelings about them are still raw. You haven't been appointed by anyone to be a judge of validity and it’s a bit churlish of you to say that these types of issues shouldn't be banged on about, which is, of itself, an ad hominen, isn't it?

As to the topic, the fact that the 1st was all but wiped out of itself is proof that they were cannon fodder. Where's your evidence to establish the contrary? The soldiers of the 1st were anticipating being utilised over Warsaw but this never materialised (Warsaw citizens thought they were coming when they saw the USAAF parachute drops). This is just another link in the chain of HMG's backstab of Poland. There were rumours of mutiny, but the famed discipline of the Polish troops again came to the fore and they carried out their duty and obeyed orders, knowing that they were being tasked with a forlorn hope but not knowing that they had already been stabbed in the back at Teheran. Arnhem was just another twist of the knife. HMG's refusal of Anders' proposal to use Polish soldiers to fight their way back to Poland in the latter stages of WW2 was one of the last self serving stabs to be delivered. HMG attempted to save face and 'smoke and mirror' their actions by graciously allowing some Poles to stay on in GB after WW2 when the implications of their actions were plain to see - no home to go back to or judicial murder upon return.

The contribution of Polish soldiery during WW2 meant that your grandparents and parents in Britain emerged sovereign and victorious at the end of WW2. The Poles in contrast had none of this. If you can't understand this dichotomy then you'll never understand Poland, its people, and its post WW2 emigre population.

The funny thing about Poms like you is that you cry foul whenever there's an inkling on this forum of admittedly rude, but tongue-in cheek (and ultimately innocuous) Pom bashing but profess surprise and indignation when Poles take issue with being betrayed, murdered by the Soviets and then left to the dogs by a supposed friend. The sooner you realise that your government in WW2 (with the exception of a valiant and morally superior minority) betrayed Poland and did not fulfil its part of the contract, the sooner we can all move on. Deflecting the issues with smoke and mirror arguments just doesn't work anymore.
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Mar 2010 #35
The post above justifies my original comment perfectly.

Not even worth picking it apart point by point.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
29 Mar 2010 #36
A common response when one has nothing substantial to respond with. Been my experience that it happens in trials when someone in the witness box is caught out or has nothing valid by way of response. It's your prerogative, but I expected a bit more from someone who obviously has a sense of intelligence and analytical nous. Oh well - I'll simply assume my position prevails and that you won't bother picking apart anything anyone else has to say ;-)
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Mar 2010 #37
Ozi Dan: A common response when one has nothing substantial to respond with.

Read half a dozen of the posts I've already made in this thread. To respond would be repetition.

As I said right at the start, some people mention the same thing again and again like a historical revisionists Groundhog Day. My comment was that this was both annoying and unproductive. It would be hypocritical of me to fall into the same habit.

And it's 2 am; arguing about the minutiae of WWII is not something to do in the afternoon - not the middle of the night on Sunday.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
29 Mar 2010 #38
jonni: Read half a dozen of the posts I've already made in this thread. To respond would be repetition.

I have, but I raised some points which you hadn't canvassed. If you're trying to save face with self serving statements like:

jonni: It would be hypocritical of me to fall into the same habit.

then I misread your capacity and intent in this debate. Indeed, the hypocrisy lies in the fact that you continue to post on these threads with nothing but remonstrations for other people who continue to raise these topics. Can you see the irony there?

Edit

jonni: And it's 2 am; arguing about the minutiae of WWII is not something to do in the afternoon - not the middle of the night on Sunday.

Have a good night mate! It's mid morning here in Oz so perhaps I've got the unfair advantage of a clear head (though a 2.5 year old toddler usually leads to a distinct lack of sleep). I'll look forward to your thoughts when you've caught some z's.
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Mar 2010 #39
Ozi Dan: If you're trying to save face with self serving statements like:

No need to, nor are your points especially original. In a war, bad things happen and often those who are bravest die first. Nationality is secondary to that, and to imply that the Polish soldiers were treated differently because they were Polish ignores both the horrors of war and the experience of others who fought.

Self-serving? Hmm :-) It's an interesting phenomemon sometimes on this board to hear people in Canada the US the UK etc with very strong and often aggresively expressed views on Polish C20 history and its impact on today's Poland, while those of us who live our lives here, seeing war memorials, execution plaques and buildings riddled with bullet holes every day (not cheerful on a cold grey morning in the former ghetto), manage to get on with things and look to (and are building) Poland's future rather than dwelling on the evils of the past.

Ozi Dan: you continue to post on these threads with nothing but remonstrations for other people who continue to raise these topics. Can you see the irony there?

No irony. I pointed out that there are some people here who repeat the same things, as if they have a personal sense of grievance about things which occurred before any of them were born - indeed in some cases before their grandparents were born - without adding anything new or considering that people here in PL might have actually moved on. Don't you think that's true?

Anyway, at past 2 am, it's too late to talk about horrific wars which occurred (fortunately) before the memory of most people alive today, and which some on this forum would have liked to prolong.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
29 Mar 2010 #40
jonni: Polish soldiers were treated differently because they were Polish ignores both the horrors of war and the experience of others who fought.

Had they been British then, they would have been treated the same? I doubt it.

jonni: Don't you think that's true?

In some respects, it's very true. But the flip side of that coin is that some people still have grievances and it's disingenuous to say that they shouldn't because of some fictional and metaphysical cut-off point (ie you say it's been over 70 years). The fact is, unfortunately, some people still live with the echoes of WW2 to this day and it's cathartic to discuss them. I grew up with a father who as a 7 year old in the Rising lived through things which were either sub-consciously or consciously imparted upon me simply by living with and being raised by him. These things impart themselves on the psyche, and it will always be resisted if someone tells you how you should feel, or act on those feelings, if that person hasn't walked in your shoes. If some people get caught in the cross fire of these discussions or don't like them, then switch off, but don't judge unless you've been there and done that. I hope you understand.
enkidu 7 | 623
29 Mar 2010 #41
jonni: as if they have a personal sense of grievance about things which occurred before any of them were born

In the year 2000 whole of my family include only 10 people. Including my uncle and cousins. The rest laid down on the unmarked graveyards somewhere in the Ukraine and Siberia. And yes - it was as an result of WW2. And yes - it's quite personal.

And situation of my family wasn't very uncommon.
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Mar 2010 #42
I doubt it.

But hard evidence from those who were there would help. In the absence of that we can only speculate.

But the flip side of that coin is that some people still have grievances and it's disingenuous to say that they shouldn't because of some fictional and metaphysical cut-off point

I see what you mean. My point though is that those who raise the same points evey day were not there. Most are under 30. Those who survived those times tend to have a pragmatic attitude.

Your comments about your father are something I understand the point of mentioning. I've heard many family stories about surviving the Liverpool Blitz in the cellar, and parts of dead bodies in the street and family members who went off to war and ended up buried in some Burmese jungle or in France. My father who was a kid in the cellar when the bombs were falling around them night after night never talks about it - and probably has unresolved issues. Some people find discussion cathartic - others do not.

Of the older people here that I know, most do not mention details, but some hint at dreadful things. A man I know in his late 80s gets upset sometimes about a particular event when he was in the AK - I don't know the details, but I do know that it still troubles him even though he doesn't want to disuss it. The man in question was certainly a high achiever in post-war Poland who helped to build the post-war state - someone who got on with things and looked to the future. He survived the worst the twentieth century could give, and never had either the luxury of abstraction or the luxury of living a generation or so later in a much more peaceful country.

And he doesn't, ever, talk about abstract geopolitical grievances and 'what ifs' like some of the twenty-something year old posters here, much less repeat them pointlessly from some Mid-West town, scoring political and nationalistic points out of other people's personal tragedies, while those here in Warsaw get on with life.
Orzelbialy - | 17
29 Mar 2010 #43
Lol honestly jonni your one of the most ignorant people I have seen on this forum. Telling Polish people to forget ww2 is like telling Jewish people to forget the holocaust. Jeeeez only 20% of your population was wiped out, most of your cities and national architecture was destroyed and you had to start the nation over from scratch GOD get over yourselves. WW2 and the betrayal of our allies or Real Politik or inactivity or whatever you want to call it has forever changed our cultural identity because unfortunately we did not get the luxury of freedom after our "liberation".
Harry
29 Mar 2010 #44
The post above justifies my original comment perfectly.

Not even worth picking it apart point by point.

I particularly like the casual racism that no post by Danny boy is complete without.

Self-serving? Hmm :-) It's an interesting phenomemon sometimes on this board to hear people in Canada the US the UK etc with very strong and often aggresively expressed views on Polish C20 history and its impact on today's Poland

I know what you mean Jon. Danny boy doesn't: Poland isn't actually important enough to him to actually go to the trouble of even visiting the place, let alone ever doing anything at all to help Poland be better tomorrow than it was today!

Had they been British then, they would have been treated the same? I doubt it.

If they had been British, they probably would have taken the correct communication codes with them and thus would have all received the order to turn back. However, as it was only 41 of the 114 planes carrying the Poles did what they were ordered to do: turn back. But why let facts get in the way of yet another of your little myths, eh Danny boy?

BTW: not so long ago I posted a long list of all the threads where I owned you to the the extent that you had to slink away with your tail between your legs. Is there any chance that you can reply in any of those?
Orzelbialy - | 17
29 Mar 2010 #45
Hey Harry could i see some evidence of that order to turn back? I couldn't find any(no sarcasm) besides I dont understand why your here. Are you just a British national bashing Poles?
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
29 Mar 2010 #46
jonni: But hard evidence from those who were there would help. In the absence of that we can only speculate.

To the contrary, in my view it would be speculative to suggest they were treated the same and evidence from those who suggest otherwise would be required, as opposed to what you seem to suggest. I suppose the evidence in your favour would be the fact that HMG insisted with Germany that AK combatants be treated effectively as though British soldiers would be viz their POW status on threat of German prisoners losing such status, though arguably this was the exception rather than the rule. Katyn and its aftermath could be evidence to the contrary (ie if the Polish officers were British I'm sure HMG would have intervened more forcefully).

jonni: My point though is that those who raise the same points evey day were not there. Most are under 30.

Though somewhat trite, your point is taken, although this presupposes the notion that in order to have a say in something there must be proximity in space and time to the subject matter. How does one make the appropriate benchmark for validity of input? It's again one of those imponderable, metaphysical issues to which there's no right or wrong answer.

Think of it this way - imagine your child/family member/missus was involved in some sort of dispute/fight which in your subjective mind was not resolved satisfactorily and you still feel angered by what happened, even though your child/missus etc aren't too worried about it and wonder why you keep carrying on about it. It's an emotional reaction when someone dear to you is threatened or has been wronged. Posters in the camp to which you disagree with can be seen in that light - they weren't there, they don't know exactly what happened but they're angry because they feel the issue was unresolved and simply for the fact that it happened to someone they love(d). It's kind of a proxy form of guilt finding behaviour and because in the case of Poland and WW2 there will probably never be justice this will most likely continue.

jonni: My father who was a kid in the cellar when the bombs were falling around them night after night never talks about it - and probably has unresolved issues.

I'm sorry to hear your father had to live through that and for your sake I'm glad he didn't burden you with what he experienced. My dad spoke about his experiences because one day I questioned why he had so many little crater like scars on his shins. The answer was he and his friends were playing in the ruins when a German machine gun crew decided to open up on them, killing most of my dad's friends, with him copping a barrage of concrete shrapnel, thus the scars. He was there in Warsaw when the parachute drops occurred - you can imagine the excitement when this first happened then the despondency when it was realised that it wasn't Polish troops coming to help. His father had just died in the Rising, his uncle was still fighting on under the army who went to Britain, and the hope that Warsaw and Poland would be saved had just been squashed - a bitter pill to swallow.

jonni: And he doesn't, ever, talk about abstract geopolitical grievances and 'what ifs' like some of the twenty-something year old posters here, much less repeat them pointlessly from some Mid-West town, scoring political and nationalistic points out of other people's personal tragedies, while those here in Warsaw get on with life.

Does this then mean that anybody (including accredited historians) shouldn’t speak about Poland’s history unless they’ve lived it? Am I acceptable because I’m 30 something and live on the coast?

I suppose that when one has the luxury of a good life and time to spare, thoughts ineluctably turn to self scrutiny and delving into one's past. Those geo-political grievances are only abstract to those to whom they don't apply. From my perspective, they are relevant because the end result of geo-politics in post WW2 Poland led to the loss of a not insignificant family fortune, my father escaping Poland and me being born in Australia. Whether or not something is abstract is relative to every different person or school of thought. In your case it’s abstract but to me it’s not. I’m sure that you have interests or thoughts that I would probably find abstract or even downright boring – but I’m not going to quibble with you and say you shouldn’t talk about them because I don’t like it, or I think you should move on with your life and not dwell on them.

Harry: But why let facts get in the way of yet another of your little myths, eh Danny boy?

I wasn't aware that I was referring specifically to the 1st parachute brigade in that particular circumstance when making this comment, but you obviously know my arguments better than me. Perhaps try re-reading and you'll see what I meant.

Harry: BTW: not so long ago I posted a long list of all the threads where I owned you to the the extent that you had to slink away with your tail between your legs. Is there any chance that you can reply in any of those?

Ouch! Double ouch!!! That's pretty scathing H-dog and bravo for really giving me the what for (BTW: it was cute how you introduced that as a casual ‘by the way’ at the end of your post, suggesting an air of indifference, but I know you’ve been itching to bring it up again). I had a look at that 'list' and responded at the time but I see my post was dumped, probably seeing as you nefariously drew us both off topic in that thread. Be a good lad and see if you can hunt it down for me.

How do you reconcile owning me purely based on me not responding to every droll ad hom attack against me? I just think you’re a bit upset because I’ve already said that I’ve owned you in every debate we’ve had and you weren’t able to show any past discussion evidencing the contrary. Have a crack at concocting another exhaustive list and if there’s anything there that genuinely requires a response, then I’ll do so (and no, you simply reposting yourself saying that I should hold the coat of a Pakistani police man, whilst amusing, is not something genuinely requiring a response!). If you could do that say within the next couple of days and create a thread in the off topic section I’ll meet you there for our ‘show down’.

2nd BTW: don’t forget your asthma puffer Haz!

3rd BTW: were were weren’t

Harry: the the

a band from the 80’s, or have you been listening to Stutter Rap by Morris Minor and the Majors on your tape Walkman?
Harry
29 Mar 2010 #47
Hey Harry could i see some evidence of that order to turn back? I couldn't find any(no sarcasm) besides I dont understand why your here. Are you just a British national bashing Poles?

Perhaps you might like to read a decent history book? Alternatively have a look at
pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/frames.htm
Far from Poles being sent to be cannon foder, they were actually ordered to return to base and did not follow that order. And despite most Poles teling you that the British dropped the Poles directly onto German guns, in reality of the 1,003 Poles who did jump, only five were killed while parachuting then.

Ozi Dan: As to the topic, the fact that the 1st was all but wiped out of itself is proof that they were cannon fodder. Where's your evidence to establish the contrary?

The fact that they did not obey a direct order to return to base says a certain something. And you're either confused or just plain lying (as usual) when you claim that the first Polish parachute regiment was all but wiped out after being used as cannon foder. In reality the Poles suffered a loss rate of 23% during Market Garden, which is far better than the 75%+ which the British lost.

Ozi Dan: though a 2.5 year old toddler usually leads to a distinct lack of sleep

Are you teaching the little tyke to racially abuse people just like daddy does?
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Mar 2010 #48
Orzelbialy: Lol your one of the most ignorant people I have seen on this forum.

Forget the 'lol' stuff, take a grammar course and actually read the post before commenting, numbskull...

I was telling some of the twenty-somethings, far from Poland, to stop going on about Yalta and other perceived injustices as if it were a big part of their day to day lives, and pointing out, accurately, that people here in Poland have indeed forgotten about it in their day to day lives and just get on with things.

Orzelbialy: Telling Polish people to forget ww2 is like telling Jewish people to forget the holocaust.

Check out hundreds of the posts on this forum.

OziDan: although this presupposes the notion that in order to have a say in something there must be proximity in space and time to the subject matter

Yes.

If I went far enough back, I could probably calculate how many of my ancestors were wiped out by, say, the Irish Potato Famine. It would be pointless to dwell on it every day though, as pointless as a 23 year old from Michigan dwelling on WWII.

OziDan: Does this then mean that anybody (including accredited historians) shouldn’t speak about Poland’s history unless they’ve lived it? Am I acceptable because I’m 30 something and live on the coast?

Who mentioned "accredited" historians? For information, historians write books give lectures, hold seminars. They don't tend to write nasty posts on open internet fora. At least not if they want a reputation. And if you're young and far away, you have the luxury of living in the present.
frd 7 | 1,399
29 Mar 2010 #49
they were actually ordered to return to base

Interesting read Harry, but I can find no information about such order in the link you've pasted. Tried to look elsewhere through google and couldn't find anything about retreat orders ignored by Poles.

They were dropped in a particularly hot region and were ordered to cross the river Rhine which under the circumstances at hand proved really hard or nearly impossible as the link you've posted suggests.

Were you talking about this ( as the supposed not following orders to retreat ):

Major-General Sosabowski had surveyed the scene prior to the British arrival, and he correctly believed that, although the German strength was considerable on the far bank, it was mostly concentrated in the immediate area occupied by the 1st Airborne. He therefore proposed a major crossing, involving the whole of the...

or this

Major-General Thomas had a plan of his own. He proposed that one of his own units, the 4th Battalion The Dorsetshire Regiment, should cross directly opposite the high ground of the Westerbouwing Restaurant at the south-western end of the Oosterbeek Perimeter; an area that was now firmly under German control.

or this

The 1st Polish Parachute Brigade Group had performed as well as circumstances had allowed them in Operation Market Garden, but in its aftermath the British commanders conspired to make them a scapegoat for the failure. Montgomery wrote to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, reporting "Polish Para Brigade fought...

Anyways, all at all it seems the whole market garden operation was badly planned. I can't see anything "heroic" about the jump of Polish paratroopers, they did the jump and were pretty much pinned down through the whole battle beside loosing soldiers while crossing the river and parashooting down into the drop point. I'm kind of sad because of Sosabowski who I think was a good soldier and a good general and got treated like that after coming back to his country when for instance American generals got all the glamour and admiration.

I've also found this link:
rememberseptember44.com/rs44.htm
it has got pretty interesting maps of the operation, unit movements and so on.
Ironside 50 | 10,922
29 Mar 2010 #50
Harry: Are you teaching the little tyke to racially abuse people just like daddy does?

did you learned from your dad to abuse people? bias against people with different mind set their your own is indeed short of prejudice and what is racism than the other face of prejudice!?

Ozi Dan: end result of geo-politics in post WW2 Poland led to the loss of a not insignificant family fortune, my father escaping Poland and me being

Why don't you move to Poland? Did you ever considered it?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Mar 2010 #51
jonni: I see what you mean. My point though is that those who raise the same points evey day were not there. Most are under 30. Those who survived those times tend to have a pragmatic attitude.

But we suffer the indirect consequences so your point needs to be flushed down a toilet like so much ****.
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Mar 2010 #52
Sokrates: But we suffer the indirect consequences

So you're sitting wherever, writing the usual bile, nastiness and vulgarity while claiming to be "suffering" from something? While others, actually in Poland, old enough to have really suffered just get on with life.

Interesting that you use the word "we". Opens a whole Pandora's Box, that does...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
29 Mar 2010 #53
Sokrates: But we suffer the indirect consequences so your point needs to be flushed down a toilet like so much ****

Well...not anymore I would think. Right now Poland looks good compared to some "older" western countries.
Harry
29 Mar 2010 #54
Interesting read Harry, but I can find no information about such order in the link you've pasted. Tried to look elsewhere through google and couldn't find anything about retreat orders ignored by Poles.

Check the page for Thursday 21 September titled "the Polish brigade". It says

After two days of cancellations and frustration, the one thousand five hundred and sixty-eight men of the 1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade Group finally took-off on Thursday 21st September. True to form, however, their departure was not at all a satisfactory affair as they were again delayed by fog...

Same page gives info about the drop being a reasonable success.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Mar 2010 #55
Bratwurst Boy:Well...not anymore I would think. Right now Poland looks good compared to some "older" western countries.

In what regard? C'mon we dont have any political elites, our economy is in shambles when compared to all large western states.

So you're sitting wherever, writing the usual bile, nastiness and vulgarity while claiming to be "suffering" from something?

Yep pretty much.

While others, actually in Poland, old enough to have really suffered just get on with life.

So do i, i never really mistread anyone based on my political or historical views, of course someone could make a point that i verbally abuse people like you but thats only because you can be a f*cking idiot sometimes.

Interesting that you use the word "we". Opens a whole Pandora's Box, that does...

We the Poles, we the Germans, we the French, you know the whole nationality concept thats been around for the last 140 years?
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Mar 2010 #56
Sokrates: i verbally abuse people

That's true.

Sokrates: We the Poles, we the Germans, we the French

You feel qualified to speak for all 40 million?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
29 Mar 2010 #57
Sokrates: In what regard? C'mon we dont have any political elites, our economy is in shambles when compared to all large western states.

PIIGS anybody? GREECE for fucksake??? Economical and social basket cases even as they are hanging for years on the tits of the EU! Poland is above them already if you like it or not! ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Mar 2010 #58
Bratwurst Boy: GREECE for fucksake???

How is Greeks being retards about their economy relevant?

Bratwurst Boy: Economical and social basket cases even as they are hanging for years on the tits of the EU! Poland is above them already if you like it or not! ;)

Poland is also above Ukraine or Belarus, being above third world countries or a bunch of spendy idiots doesnt change our here and now situation.

jonni: That's true.

You're not people, you're a person, sometimes.

jonni: You feel qualified to speak for all 40 million?

Of course not but i'm more "qualified" then you, being Polish and all.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
30 Mar 2010 #59
Bratwurst Boy: Well...not anymore I would think. Right now Poland looks good compared to some "older" western countries.

You are right B B. if you actually take look at the composition of the gov, it stacks up quite well even against countries that do not fall into the Greek category. I find Poles in general love to dump on their gov, even though they usually know very little about it.
TIT 5 | 211
30 Mar 2010 #60
and you a master with Polish politics? am I right?


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