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Polish hatred towards Jews...


vetala - | 382
16 Nov 2009 #571
yehudi

I would have agreed with that. But when I think about prime minister of Israel saying that I sucked antisemitism with my mother's milk or about WJC criticizing Poland's request to change the name of Auschwitz because they believe that Poles share responsibility for it just because they knew about it's existance (and even claim that guards were Polish!), when I search 'Poland' on the websites of most prominent Jewish press to find antisemitism mentioned in virtually every article coupled with comments wishing for Poland to be eradicated, or when I simply type 'Poles and Jews' in google browser and read the matches - that's when I suddenly feel very, very bitter and I can't blame others for feeling the same. It's very hard to be indifferent after reading hundreds of negative comments about one's nation, wouldn't you agree? There are of course people here who are simply antisemites 'just because' but mostly there are people who are probably as bitter and disillusioned and overwhelmed with the feeling of being unjustly hated and attacked - as you probably feel when reading so many comments critical of Jews here.

Which is why I think that all long discussions about Jews should be deleted so as not to encourage new ones.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
16 Nov 2009 #572
I've asked for that before, but they probably won't do that, V. Besides the question of who hates who the most, it just creates a nasty atmosphere and to be honest, nobody will get better off it or learn anything. I've said it many times before and I will say it again: we've got only one ball to live on and we have to share it with one and another. Let's try and make that a little bit peaceful, shall we?

PS: however, I do think though that they should keep the name "Auschwitz" in place for the camp - it became notorious under that name and I just think it's best to let it remain under that name. This is completely loose from all the negative bias surrounding things (and I mean from the Jewish side as well as from the Polish side), just my personal opinion about it.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
16 Nov 2009 #573
If only you people would be indifferent to jews, this would be a better world, (and this would be a better forum.)

amen, I am tired of the merry go around anti- Jewish discussions and most Jews I have met were pretty, pretty good:). Some were actually very inspiring, so there you go. Am I lucky or maybe able to see beyond the nationality?

Some Poles look for the scape goat so they don't have to be responsible for their own shortcomings, things they screwed up and the list goes on, and on, and on......
Seanus 15 | 19,706
16 Nov 2009 #574
Sorry but I applaud the brave efforts of Żegota and other families who took Jews under their wing. The Poles are generally indifferent now but what stand can they take? I saw a contingent of Jewish students here today and that was a nice touch.

Indifference was the natural response of the times. Attempt a salvage operation and you risked extermination yourself.

That's why I say that indifference is not hatred, they just don't think about the issue that much. Some do as they live in the Stone Ages.
yehudi 1 | 433
17 Nov 2009 #575
prime minister of Israel saying that I sucked antisemitism with my mother's milk

That was Yitzchak Shamir, who probably said it more than 20 years ago. I don't think that one statement from 20 years ago should be brought up over and over again as if it's an official policy of Israel. (In his defense, he was born and grew up in Poland so who am I to tell him he's wrong. He spoke from his own experience, and you must admit that Poland in the 1920s-30s was quite hostile to Jews.) On the other hand, I admit that many Jews assume that Poles hate Jews without looking into it and without considering that this generalization insults many Poles.

comments wishing for Poland to be eradicated

I read israeli newspapers every day and I have never come across a comment like that.

Which is why I think that all long discussions about Jews should be deleted so as not to encourage new ones.

Not a bad idea.
My interest in this forum is more to see how today's Poles relate to Israel, considering our long history together – not to talk about what happened in the past.
vetala - | 382
17 Nov 2009 #576
I read israeli newspapers every day and I have never come across a comment like that.

I meant the comments online. I don't think any respected newspaper would print openly racist articles.

As for Yitzchak Shamir - he later apologized and said that he knew many good Poles, but one has to search very hard to find out about this, so not many people know about it.

Also Israel backed Poland's request for the change of Auschwitz' name, which is a nice gesture but again - not many people on either side know or care.
Bzibzioh
17 Nov 2009 #577
If only you people would be indifferent to jews, this would be a better world, (and this would be a better forum.)

Nothing but the usual neurotic overreaction to harmless slights.

We were and are indifferent to you and that's what pisses you off the most: you have to be LOVED and admired for you perceive yourselves the best what happened to human race. That ain't gonna happen but that still does not make us antisemitic. Get over it. It's hard for a proud nation as yours to get pass the humiliation of being slaughtered in millions without any resistance so you went on that blame game.

Yehudi, you are still a paranoid victim of the past 60 years. Poland moved on. There is Jewish cultural revival against the backdrop of 1,000 years of vibrant Jewish civilization in Poland. There are synagogues in eight Polish cities, Jewish day schools and academic programs with enrollments in the thousands, and community centers where Jews of all ages share companionship and deepen their understanding of Judaism. They are Jewish legislators in Parliament, Jewish cabinet members and Jewish politicians active in towns across the land. Poland and Israel become important trading partners and strategic allies and Israeli visitors are commonplace in Polish cities. Education in democratic norms has made both Poland’s government and its people increasingly intolerant of anti-Semitism.

So instead of assimilating pre-digested propaganda food, all Jews with a sense of self-worth should make journeys to Warsaw to feast on the health food from raw factual ingredients. Perhaps some will be more adventurous and go beyond the simple Holocaust diet, and move onto the many-layered pasta bake that was the Polish-Jewish relationship over the centuries. Many flavors will be revealed, some palatable to the Jewish taste, others that highlight some deficiencies of the senses resulting from years or looking only to pre-digested sources. To live of pre-digested food is not a wholesome way to go.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
17 Nov 2009 #578
get pass the humiliation of being slaughtered in millions without any resistance

Oh, there was resistance. But it's kinda hard to resist when you're unarmed against heavily armed soldiers who are set on killing you at the slightest pretence, isn't it? But have a look at what Wiki says about it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_during_the_Holocaust

There was resistance.

>^..^<

M-G ("we shall outlive them")
Bzibzioh
17 Nov 2009 #579
Oh, there was resistance.

I'm not talking of desperate attempts by individuals. There was no organized Jewish resistance in occupied territories as well as no massive American-Jewish protest.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
17 Nov 2009 #580
No, that is indeed a question the American Jewish society still has to answer. But like all massacres in the history of the world, the rest just sits and watches, only rarely the world acts when something like that happens: not only with the Jews. Who was there to help the Tutsis in Ruanda? The whole world knew what was going on, yet nobody of the Western world stopped it.

>^..^<

M-G (shame on the world)
szkotja2007 27 | 1,498
17 Nov 2009 #581
The whole world knew what was going on, yet nobody of the Western world stopped it.

Too true, I remember seeing a film ( or TV programme ) on General Romeo Dallaire. Poor guy had to stand and watch as his own troops and civvies were killed.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
17 Nov 2009 #582
Oh, there was resistance. But it's kinda hard to resist when you're unarmed against heavily armed soldiers who are set on killing you at the slightest pretence

I hear (well, read) pretty often that Poles didn't do enough.

It was 'kinda hard' for Jews to defend themselves but it should have been a damned duty for Poles? To fight for Jews, to die for Jews?
Bzibzioh
17 Nov 2009 #583
But like all massacres in the history of the world, the rest just sits and watches, only rarely the world acts when something like that happens

Yep. But in this case only Poles got the blame just because they were closest to the events. The rest went blame-free although they were in position to help. This bias and outright bigotry always makes me cringe.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
17 Nov 2009 #584
The rest went blame-free

That's not entirely true, there was a lot of critisism on why, for example, the Allies didn't bombard Auschwitz and there was a lot of crisism on Jewish societies (mostly from Jews themselves - compare the plea of Rabbi Weissmandl from Slowakia to the Jewish society in Switzerland) for not doing anything, there was crisism on pope Pius 12 for not willing to condemn the Holocaust (because he didn't want to offend the Catholics in Germany - on the other hand, he prayed for a swift victory of the Nazis over the Commies), in short, there was quite some critisism. Not only on the Poles. The Jews were perhaps most critical of their fellowmen.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Piorun - | 658
17 Nov 2009 #585
Oh, there was resistance. But it's kinda hard to resist when you're unarmed against heavily armed soldiers who are set on killing you at the slightest pretence, isn't it?

I suppose Poles were much better off in your mind. Besides I suppose the arms and other supplies (not to mention the food) so this futile attempt was to be even attempted were smuggled there by the Germans, French or Dutch? Ungrateful bunch that only know how to accuse and blame others, constantly painting the picture of Polish Anti-Semite in their revision of history and press articles forgetting the true oppressor proving that it does not matter who did what but rather who compensated them in billions of dollars. If they can convince enough people of the lies hammered in by the negative press about Poland for decades, they hope to profit even more. They tell us and others to forget the past and move on while they themselves dwell on it and profit from it. It might sound like an anti-Semitic statement to the brain washed western mind but it’s the truth conveniently ignored by those that profit from Holocaust industry and a casual reader ignorant of small but very important details. You suffered, you were compensated, never forget but it’s time for you to move on.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
17 Nov 2009 #586
You suffered, you were compensated, never forget but it’s time for you to move on.

Tell that to the anti-semites that still roam this forum. I have moved on, it's only them that keep bringing up the topic again and again. Not me. So if you wanna blame somebody, blame them for bringing it up time after time.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Bzibzioh
17 Nov 2009 #587
The Jews were perhaps most critical of their fellowmen.

That I have yet to see.
Piorun - | 658
17 Nov 2009 #588
So if you wanna blame somebody, blame them for bringing it up time after time.

It’s not a question of who the blame should be assigned to; there is only one true history which many so called historical scholars choose to ignore. From my perspective all I see is negative statements about Poland from the Jews on this forum, and frankly I’m sick and tired of this so in my mind occasional outburst is excused. It’s not YOU personally that I blame; your statement simply coincided with my outburst.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,498
17 Nov 2009 #589
Jews, Jews, Joos, Juice........

Being a wee laddie from the North of Scotland with limited experience of coming in to contact with Jewery ( I think at the last census there was about 250 in an area the size of Belgium ) I have dejuced the following, there are

Jews - normal blokes that happen to be four by twoish.

Israelis - That happen to be Joos in Israel.

Zionists - That are Jews and are fanatical about it.

Nutjobs - That would probably be nutjobs in any religion but they just happen to be Jewish so Jewish supremacy it is.

Of course there are also those that are a mixture of one,the other or all of the above.

Can anyone tell me where I have gone wrong in my theory or are all Jews the same ?
szarlotka 8 | 2,209
17 Nov 2009 #590
The Unified Theory. I like it. The only category you missed are the first born male children who are are all builders merchants.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
17 Nov 2009 #591
That I have yet to see.

Just do some research and you will see. Personally I think that's the same as saying: "the Poles are not critical enough towards themselves". But when you say that, it's Polonophobia or Pole-hate one is professing. But for now, I just let you do some research on the issue and you will see that there is definitively critisism from the Jewish on the Jewish who were safe and did nothing.

I think Poles and Jews suffered alike. The difference in recognition (although I got thaught in University that the Poles did suffer tremendously - and in fact, I never denied that) is in my opinion due to two factors: 1) The killing of Jews was an international thing (there were Jews from all over Europe in the KZ's), while the killing of Poles was a much more localised thing (besides the killings in PL and on occasion in RU, the number of Poles who were killed merely because they were Poles in other countries -especially W-Europe was really not that high, if any) 2) after the war, PL disappeared behind the Iron Curtain; news was scarce from there and they were regarded as the enemy.

I believe in due time the Poles will get their recognition and perhaps there will be a dialogue between Jewish ppl and Polish ppl will take place, it just takes some time. And don't forget that most of the remorse about the Holocaust is caused by the "hypocracy" of many Western European countries and others (partly out of shame for doing nothing); plus the fact that the Nazi ideology foresaw a role for Poles as slaves within the Reich. This last bit implies that they intended to keep them alive, albeit only as slave. For the Jews as a whole there was absolutely no place and they had to be killed all, no remnant left.

Also, don't forget that Slavs are always mentioned in the list of victims of the Nazis. They sum it always in every documentairy about the Holocaust (even the one of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre -Jewish pur sang- does this): "their victims were: Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Retarded, Political Opponents, Communists." Just pay attention to it, you will see that it's true.

Piorun,

On this forum I have heard repeatedly (not in so many words, but the msg is clear) "the Jews have brought it on themselves" or "Jews are out to rule the world" and more. Just do a search on this forum for the word "Jew". And always they bring on some racist writer or a known anti-semite and claim this to be the truth. And that's what makes me sick in turn. Like said, Jews and Poles have both suffered tremendously - it just doesn't make any sense to blame one and another - it's like little children sometimes: "we suffered more than you guys" "No! WE suffered more than you guys!" See what I mean?

Oh and by the way, if you think that the Polish cause has been ignored by historians, then you should start reading more diverse historians, so far I have hardly come across a historian that willfully neglects the suffering of the Poles. And I'm a historian myself, I've read a great number of them :) Anyway, you should read Norman Davies, for example, a British historian who definitively doesn't ignore the Polish case.

Scotch,

You're right. Jewish ppl are ppl, just like any other ppl. Certainly not the demons some ppl here on this forum think they are. But you will find out yourself, once confronted with a hot Jewish babe :) In fact I think that most of those ppl who scream blue murder when talking about Jews, would definitively not refuse when they found a hot Jewish babe in their bed :D

>^..^<

M-G (let's all just get along - the world is small and we only got one and we're renting it for a short time only)
vetala - | 382
17 Nov 2009 #592
Great post, M-G!

Pity it probably won't work for long, as usual...
Barney 15 | 1,476
17 Nov 2009 #593
MareGaea
Isn’t it sad that you have to type that.

This forum is populated by smart witty people (I'll stick to boring).
It’s only a small amount of posters who express stupid views especially towards Jews but they are loud.

Its been said before, many type cr@p because of the anonymity the Internet gives.

I like to apply the three pint rule:

If you say something in a bar after three pints that you wouldnt normally say out loud then you should look at yourself or change your friends.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
17 Nov 2009 #594
I think Poles and Jews suffered alike. Oh and by the way, if you think that the Polish cause has been ignored by historians, then you should start reading more diverse historians, so far I have hardly come across a historian that willfully neglects the suffering of the Poles.

You make the judgement against yourself...'International Jews' killed, 'Norman Davies, who definitely doesn't ignore the Polish case'...Stop it...We have had our fill of this Jewish nonsense....Always the 'Jewish victim'...Universities in the US are loaded with 'holocaust' courses, which are just about Jews...No courses about firebombing of Dresden...As the Hungarian woman political leader said 'Go play with your tiny circumcised dicks at your leisure, and don't expect us to stand to attention when you fart'...We in the US are 'victims' of your constant whining and propaganda: All 3 major networks (CNN, FOX, MSNBC) are owned by Jews and we are fed this Jewish line incessantly...PBS is also run by Jews...Stop it!...I can't even listen to my local radio sports talk show without hearing messages from the American Jewish Congress asking us to bomb Iran, because otherwise 'Jews will be slaughtered'...There is no other nationality in the US that gets even a fraction of this attention...

You now have a 'county', Israel that you can go to, although it won't be around that much longer, because even this is not good enough for Jews...You can go back to Central Asia, where your tribe originates, if they will have you...There is also still an autonomous Jewish republic in Siberia...You see, the problems of the Jews are self-created...Always, 'they hate Jews'...I could care less about 'Jews' but 'Jews' themselves need center stage because they see the world through the wrong end of a telescope, with themselves as the object observed at the 'center of the Universe'...There is no people on the face of the earth who have so much privilege and complain so much...And may I point out, it is not the poor Jews, or the struggling ones all over the world who are the whiners, rather the rich and the greedy ones...And any talk of 'Holocaust' must be balanced by 'Holodomor' perpetrated by Jewish Communists on Slavs, Orthodox Slavs...Not to mention the collaboration by Polish Jews with the invading Soviets, both military and NKVD.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
17 Nov 2009 #595
vetala

Thanks! I hope the msg finally gets through...Let's wait and see :)

Barney

You hit the nail right on the head, my man! I think it was Byron who said: "all that evil needs to rise, is for good men to do nothing". Well, I refuse to let evil grow, even if it's only those keyboard warriors and barking little dogs from a safe distance. Probably one can never root out the cr*p fully and completely, but let the good ppl rest assured that those ppl probably not so happy with themselves as well.

joepilsudski

You really didn't get it, did you Joe? You're not even Polish, but American. I believe in letting bygones be bygones. It's better to never forget and to forgive than to forget and to never forgive, like my wise (Jewish) grandmother always said when asked if she hated the Germans for killing her entire family and her husband's entire family. She was truly wise. And if she can, you can. Or are you too blind to see?

>^..^<

M-G (what about the idea that Barney, SeanBM, Wildrover and Charlotte and a couple of others would meet up some time in Dublin for a decent pint?)
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
18 Nov 2009 #596
"the Poles are not critical enough towards themselves". But when you say that, it's Polonophobia or Pole-hate one is professing.

Brother - when a goy says 'Jew', it's already antisemitism, you know that. Abe F. is pissing himself then while spitting nasty foam flavoured with antigoyism - like most specials.

definitively critisism from the Jewish on the Jewish who were safe and did nothing

True, one even did kill himself to protest against it. Yet: NOTHING happened.
And still, Poles were to get blamed for every Special dead. Same ol', same ol'.

a dialogue between Jewish ppl and Polish ppl will take place, it just takes some time

Hopefully. But for the next 20 years - foh get 'bout it.

don't forget that Slavs are always mentioned in the list of victims of the Nazis (...) Just pay attention to it, you will see that it's true.

I know it is, I know they were. Where can you read about this - if you're a common Israeli?

Propaganda says: ONLY Jews were killed, ONLY Jews suffered - THE rest: helped.
Period.

a known anti-semite

And who's that? Someone who has a clear point of view about the Specials, and someone whom the Specials certainly don't like?

A known antisemite - A phrase that means NOTHING.

"we suffered more than you guys" "No! WE suffered more than you guys!"

Oh, you suffered more, no doubt I guess - but a time to stop this 'blame game' should come.

Blame individual Poles, who either did report the whereabouts of a Jew to earn their 30 pieces of silver or to uphold a law - DO NOT blame the whole. Period.
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Nov 2009 #597
Yehudi, you are still a paranoid victim of the past 60 years.

I've reread some of my posts to see if I've been paranoid. Couldn't find anything. Would you be mixing me up with Harry or would you be lumping me with whatever comments you heard from other Jews? I agree with the second part of your post, that Jewish life in poland is now having a period of rebirth and I'm very happy about that.

So instead of assimilating pre-digested propaganda food, all Jews with a sense of self-worth should make journeys to Warsaw to feast on the health food from raw factual ingredients.

You obviously wrote this on an empty stomach. Go eat something.
That you should say this to me is surprising since I did go to Warsaw and many other places in Poland, and spoke to people in towns and villages and visited sites that show the "many-layered pasta bake that was the Polish-Jewish relationship over the centuries" that you referred to. It gave me an appetite for more.
nomaderol 5 | 726
18 Nov 2009 #598
to my observation, although short period but clear, it seems that there is no problem between native polishes and jews.. it seems those polishes who moved to europe and usa in the past arent liking or even hating jews. perhaps, such polish people are being used by old classical jew-hate centers of europe and usa.
nomaderol 5 | 726
18 Nov 2009 #600
Easy_Terran

we have a saying here: (when you are asked where are you from.)

"i am from where i get my food"
(i dont say i am from where i was born nor from where my parents were from)

for example, turks living and feeding themselves are not in turkey, but, in germany are not native turks.

i meant this by "native polish." they are those who feed themselves in poland. nonnative polish are those who feed themselves outside of poland.

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