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Polish flag over the Reichstag first?


z_darius 14 | 3,968
4 Jan 2011 #271
Patton was nuts, he wanted to stop fighting the Germans and have them help him take Moscow!

To me it seems like he was one of the few with brains actually. The problem was he was open about it.

After all the US government harbored a lot of Nazis and Nazi collaborators and gave them shelter on the US territory. Some were actually used in anti-soviet work during the cold war.
Babinich 1 | 455
4 Jan 2011 #272
They always had the expendable numbers.

No they didn't... By the end of the war the Soviets were at the end of the line where manpower was concerned.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Jan 2011 #273
Not really no, they still had upwards of 2 milion reservists, thats a lot.
sascha 1 | 826
4 Jan 2011 #274
No they didn't... By the end of the war the Soviets were at the end of the line where manpower was concerned.

For them(the Russians)? They yet started to roll.

The bombs in Japan from USA? Desperate move to end the war in Asia and cut the US losses short and of course testing... like so many times later in history.

The spirit of US ground troops is let's say not so 'high' even when having technical and material advantage. ;-)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #275
They yet started to roll.

Yeah sure...20+ mill dead, a destroyed country with a starving population....sure they were on a roll!

The red army was exhausted as everybody else...there wasn't much more to add.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
4 Jan 2011 #276
The red army was exhausted as everybody else...there wasn't much more to add.

BB, people were sick of fighting. Maybe Patton and a handful of Germans were not but everyone else was. That's just the reality of the situation.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #277
Patton wasn't, the Germans weren't, the Poles weren't, the Baltics weren't, the Hungarians weren't, no country getting shoved behind the iron curtain by the "big 3" actually wasn't.

But they weren't asked!
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
4 Jan 2011 #278
Patton wasn't, the Germans weren't, the Poles weren't, the Baltics weren't, the Hungarians weren't, no country getting shoved behind the iron curtain actually wasn't.

No one was happy with the iron curtain, bb, but look at what it would have taken to stop it...a lot more war...fighting, death, destruction.
sascha 1 | 826
4 Jan 2011 #279
Yeah sure...20+ mill dead, a destroyed country with a starving population....sure they were on a roll!

So? What was destroyed in Russia? That small western part up to Moscow? Obviously you don't know the size of that country.

Russia defeated Germany on the east front. They crushed the once glorious 'Deutsche Wehrmacht' to the ground.

The red army was exhausted as everybody else...there wasn't much more to add.

That they stopped in Berlin was a deal with the US. Nothing more. They also captured Vienna. so much about being tired...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #280
Hadn't stopped starting the world war by the western allies in the first place? But now nobody cared anymore??? What a victory...
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
4 Jan 2011 #281
Hadn't stopped starting the world war by the western allies in the first place?

The only reason the A bombs were dropped on Japan was to stop the war because American morale was very low. You cannot win a war with low morale.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #282
You cannot win a war with low morale.

How do you think the human waves of the Red Army worked? They put NKVD troops with machine guns behind them....

Don't tell me the Europeans had lacked the morale to fight against the soviet troops on their lands!
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
4 Jan 2011 #283
They put NKVD troops with machine guns behind them....

That's why we didn't want to fight. Why fight a war unless you are absolutely sure you can win?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #284
Who is "we"...nobody asked you to fight. Your material support would had been enough.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
4 Jan 2011 #285
That they stopped in Berlin was a deal with the US. Nothing more. They also captured Vienna. so much about being tired...

Jeez, if you're a German I'm a freaking Russian. You're most likely one of those cases where someone of your ancestors had a German Shepherd and now you became a German citizen only because of this fact. I bet you don't even speak proper German Sasha, (lol)
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
4 Jan 2011 #286
Who is "we"...nobody asked you to fight. Your material support would had been enough.

America was already there, involved in all of it. We would have been asked to fight on behalf of Britain.
Wroclaw Boy
4 Jan 2011 #287
Who is "we"...nobody asked you to fight. Your material support would had been enough.

Hitler declared war on America remember? another of his famous Howlers, you have to admire his loyalty to Japan though.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
4 Jan 2011 #288
Don't tell me the Europeans had lacked the morale to fight against the soviet troops on their lands!

No, but they were probably very tired of war by 1945.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #289
But not tired of the idea of freedom and independence....and that's what the war was about, wasn't it?
Wroclaw Boy
4 Jan 2011 #290
No, but they were probably very tired of war by 1945.

What Europeans were left? France - no, Holland - not really, Italy - joke, Belgium - joke, Sweden, Denmark, Norway - not interested, Spain - no, Switzerland - cant fight wont fight. Only leaves the Brits could have relied on Germany though would have been nice to have those 88's.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #291
Only leaves the Brits could have relied on Germany though would have been nice to have those 88's.

You forget the whole eastern and central Europe...all these countries GB promised to help, remember? You started the war for them in '39, but in '45 you gave them to Stalin...

I think we are talking millions of motivated soldiers here!
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
4 Jan 2011 #292
You started the war for them in '39,

You forget it was Germany who didn't want to negotiate and was impatient. If Hitler would have cooled down and waited ten or twenty years everything would have worked out for Germany eventually, anyway.
Wroclaw Boy
4 Jan 2011 #293
but in '45 you gave them to Stalin...

I was always under the impression Churchill didnt carry much weight during those negotiations. The famous iron curtain speech.

From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an iron curtain has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia; all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject, in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and in some cases increasing measure of control from Moscow.

fordham.edu/halsall/mod/churchill-iron.html
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
4 Jan 2011 #294
You forget it was Germany who didn't want to negotiate and was impatient. If Hitler would have cooled down and waited ten or twenty years everything would have worked out for Germany eventually, anyway.

That's not the point...

GB and France made Germany's invasion of Poland with their war declaration to a world war....under the premise to fight for freedom and independence of Poland.

1945 they ended the war with giving Polands freedom and independence away...
convex 20 | 3,978
4 Jan 2011 #295
I was always under the impression Churchill didnt carry much weight during those negotiations. The famous iron curtain speech.

Not to mention that GB was required to declare war on Germany if it invaded, which it did. Treaty fulfilled.
Harry
5 Jan 2011 #296
1945 they ended the war with giving Polands freedom and independence away...

Perhaps you would like to read the Yalta agreement?
Babinich 1 | 455
5 Jan 2011 #297
Not really no, they still had upwards of 2 milion reservists, thats a lot.

The Soviets were at the end of their manpower reserves.

From 1941 on through to late 44, the Soviets were conscripting down to the age of eighteen.

By late 1944 the Soviets were conscripting down to the age of seventeen.

By early 1945, due to the massive losses taken in the final battles for Germany and Berlin, the Soviets were conscripting down to the age of sixteen.
sascha 1 | 826
5 Jan 2011 #298
If that is true? So? There were still reserves then...

Germans took kids who could 'hardly walk' and put them behind the cannons...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
5 Jan 2011 #299
The Soviets were at the end of their manpower reserves.

2 milion reservists is the end according to you?
George8600 10 | 636
5 Jan 2011 #300
BB is right, it doesn't sound plausible by the least. Maybe, if the Polish forces arrived with the Soviet ones? There also was never confirmation of any Polish flag going onto the Reichstag or any other important structure in Berlin.


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