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How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history...


masks98 27 | 289
11 Apr 2013  #1
I don't post here as much as I used to but something happened yesterday and I just need to vent.

I'm a New Yorker, I spent over a year teaching English in Poland living there with my ex girlfriend, but I've been back in NYC since 2009 and I work at an anti-racism charity.

Yesterday I attended a very fancy dinner, got to chat with some big shots in NYC philanthropy, and at my table there happened to be a couple. They introduced themselves to me, and spoke about their daughter who is mentally disabled, and their charity, which they are setting up to speak out on behalf of disabled people across the country. We got along great, and then the husband started telling me about racism in the US and how bad it is. I mentioned that it's not that bad, it's a minority that "hates blacks" (to use his words), and that people who complain here should know that there's much worse.

Now I'm not a hater of Poland, but I had to relate to him how living in Warsaw opened up my eyes to how good I have it in NYC. In Warsaw, while most of my students were super nice to me, and my girlfriends family were amazing (though it took some convincing to win over babcia) the racist minority is much bigger than in the US, and way more vocal. If I walked the streets alone I would merely get stares, which could be annoying but even the ones that were menacing from the street kids didn't bother me too much. But when I would hold my girlfriends hand, and the three times we made out in public, we got an earful. I'll always remember right in the centrum some guy in his car at the red light screaming "czarnuch" at me while we were holding hands. And another time, again in the centrum, when some hooligans walked by and cursed my gf out in Polish calling her a slut.

My point was that America is pretty good. Then he says:

MAN: "Yeah...Poland...they didn't really put on a good show during WW2..."

ME: You mean for losing..? Kind of hard to put on a good show when you're being double teamed by Hitler and Stalin..

MAN: No I don't mean militarily, I mean for their participation in the killing of the Jews..

ME: Oh well... I've heard that opinion before...and I believe it's based on a misreading of history...the jews and the poles were twin victims of the holocaust, almost 3 million non Jewish Poles were killed and the entire nation was to be completely annihilated after the war...yet the Polish never set up a collaborationist government like France, they fought tooth and nail, and some of the first reports about what was going on in the concentration camps came from people like Witold Pilecki and Jan Karski, Poles who volunteered to be taken to concentration camps like auschwitz, organized escapes, and tried to alert the allies about what was going on...you should also know that the Poles are the most represented group at Yad Vashem....so it's sad to hear people express that opinion about the poles, when in fact they're behavior during the holocaust was heroic."

The guy didn't even answer and turned away, seemingly restraining himself from attacking me with his butter knife.

I have so many American Jewish friends that believe this crap about Polish/Nazi collaboration, and then the whole world in general act like the holocaust was only about the jews which is ridiculous.

Anyway I later found out that that guy was a big shot philanthropist who gives millions to charities like mine. I probably blew a nice grant.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
11 Apr 2013  #2
I probably blew a nice grant.

or secured it by speaking honestly.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
11 Apr 2013  #3
Just check Debbie Schlussel's shytty website, type in Poland into the search engine there and see the "articles" and messages below them. It's real and growing, It's a matter of time when Poles will be presented as the main force behind the Holocaust, It often already is "Nazis and Poles".
OP masks98 27 | 289
11 Apr 2013  #4
or secured it by speaking honestly.

Ha! I hate to say this as it sounds anti-semitic, but too many Jews don't like honesty when it comes to Jewish matters...I believe this guy was one of them.
Bieganski 17 | 901
12 Apr 2013  #5
A monetary donation from a Polonophobic bigot would have as much ethical value as looted artworks or blood diamonds.

Your charity may have had a short-term financial loss but certainly not a moral loss.
yerrik 1 | 35
12 Apr 2013  #6
but too many Jews don't like honesty when it comes to Jewish matters...I believe this guy was one of them.

Very true.

I have so many American Jewish friends that believe this crap about Polish/Nazi collaboration, and then the whole world in general act like the holocaust was only about the jews which is ridiculous.

They are programed from day 1 to believe that everyone during that time hated them and was out to get them, and that in previous centuries everyone hated them and was out to get them, etc etc. Partly this is to achieve absolute group cohesion and loyalty. It is also used to make these Jews afraid of, and hate, Gentiles and therefore instead be extremely dependent upon one another.

With Poland in particular, however, it stems from these American Jews who know and feel guilty for not doing anything to help their fellow group

members in Poland during that time. So instead of blaming themselves, or having any kind of worldly-perspective, they blame Poland.

I should also add that, as symptoms of both narcissism and martyr complex, they could care less if anyone during that time saved or tried to save them. They owe no one, every one owes them. It's a kind of parasitical relationship.

I am not talking about every single Jewish person on planet earth here. But these are symptoms of the collective group-think.

It's a matter of time when Poles will be presented as the main force behind the Holocaust, It often already is "Nazis and Poles".

Unfortunately this is true. It's even gotten to the point where the general population that don't study history only thinks that 6 million people total died in WW2, with only a hundred thousand sprinkled here and there. Granted, I am referring to the mainstream consciousness.
welshguyinpola 23 | 463
12 Apr 2013  #7
I'm a New Yorker, I spent over a year teaching English in Poland living there with my ex girlfriend, but I've been back in NYC since 2009 and I work at an anti-racism charity.

Did you ever learn Polish in a month after?
Wroclaw Boy
12 Apr 2013  #8
You should have kept reasonably quite and not tried to be such a smart a$s, not that you did actually say what you typed here anyway, im sure you glorified that up a lot.

I would have just said something like "yes there are many misconceptions with regard to these types of stories". Its obvious your response is going to make him feel like an idiot. Unless he was a complete @sshole i can see virtually no purpose in putting him straight.

Do you feel guilty?
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
12 Apr 2013  #9
i can see virtually no purpose in putting him straight.

Really? If someone says something false, but is really very cultured about it, that's OK and you can leave it that, because they "weren't an a-hole"? If you don't put people straight pretty soon everybody is gonna repeat those "misconceptions" you speak of.
Harry
12 Apr 2013  #10
I have so many American Jewish friends that believe this crap about Polish/Nazi collaboration

Your first problem is that a lot of Poles did collaborate with the Nazis. Yes, a lot of Poles fought the Nazis, but a lot of them did collaborate with the Nazis (and the vast majority did neither of those things). Anybody who states that talk of collaboration is just a 'misreading of history' is mistaken.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
12 Apr 2013  #11
Your first problem is that a lot of Poles did collaborate with the Nazis.

Define a lot and while you are on it define collaborate.

i can see virtually no purpose in putting him straight.

Understandably it is not you concern.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Apr 2013  #12
Your first problem is that a lot of Poles did collaborate with the Nazis.

A lot of English are pedophiles.
Harry
12 Apr 2013  #13
amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Dictionary-English-Dictionaries/dp /0199571120
Thank me later.

Grzegorz_: A lot of English are pedophiles.

Yes, they are. And the problem appears to be getting worse. However, there are a lot of paedophiles in every country (apart from the very small countries, where there are still paedophiles, just not a lot of paedophiles). Would you deny that there are a lot of pedophiles in Poland?
Ironside 48 | 9,721
12 Apr 2013  #14
About 5%. Which is a similar amount to those who actively opposed the Nazis.

Are you talking about all Polish citizens regardless of their ethnicity or only about ethic Poles?
Also I would appreciate some links to works that support your claim.

Thank me later.

You see Harry I'm asking because often YOUR understanding of meaning of words differ from a dictionary definition. So I'm asking to avoid misunderstanding.

collaboration -to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force [i][/i]

anyway Harry I must point out that you are once again posting off-topic.

their participation in the killing of the Jews..

Would you agree that such statement is out of line and its a big dirty lie and slander or would you rather defend that statement?

I would appreciate a straight answer from you.
Harry
12 Apr 2013  #15
Are you talking about all Polish citizens regardless of their ethnicity or only about ethic Poles?

Define 'ethnic Pole'.

anyway Harry I must point out that you are once again posting off-topic.
masks98: their participation in the killing of the Jews..
Would you agree that such statement is out of line and its a big dirty lie and slander or would you rather defend that statement?
I would appreciate a straight answer from you.

Very straight answer: some Poles participated in the killing of Jews during WWII. Some Poles actively participated in the saving of Jews from the holocaust. Most Poles did neither of those things. It is equally wrong to deny any one of those three facts.

But of course I don't expect you to agree with the above, you won't even admit that the Jedwabne pogrom was carried out by Poles.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
12 Apr 2013  #16
Harry: Define 'ethnic Pole'.

That is not straight answer.

Do you think that saying about Poles - their participation in the killing of the Jews - is slanderous in the context it has been used or not?Simple enough qestion to answer Harry.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Apr 2013  #17
Very straight answer: some Poles participated in the killing of Jews during WWII.

Yes they did. And some English are pedophiles.
Harry
12 Apr 2013  #18
Do you think that saying about Poles - their participation in the killing of the Jews - is slanderous in the context it has been used or not?

Clearly you do not understand the meaning of the word 'slander'.

As for the truth of the statement 'some Poles participated in the killing of Jews during WWII', that is undeniable. Just as the truth of the statement 'some Poles saved Jews from the holocaust' is undeniable.

Yes they did. And some English are pedophiles.

Some of every nation are paedophiles. Would you like to talk about Polish paedophiles? If so, I'd suggest you start a thread about that, this thread is supposed to be about Polish history.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Apr 2013  #19
Clearly you do not understand the meaning of the word 'slander'.

Clearly you are yet again, through manipulations and provocations, attempting to steer the discussion from the actual topic, which is Polonophobia (you deny so much to exist) fueled by anti-semitism accusations used as an offensive weapon. Hopefully no one will fall for it this time. We've got the first hand report from a non-Polish poster experiencing said Polonophobia and that's very inconvenient to you, clearly. Your show is over.
Harry
12 Apr 2013  #20
Polonophobia (you deny so much to exist)

Do I really? Perhaps you could be so kind as to quote from posts in which I deny that it exists? Should be very easy for you to do, if I deny it so much.

We've got the first hand report from a non-Polish poster experiencing said Polonophobia

And the best way to combat misconceptions people may have about Poland is not to deny historical facts.

that's very inconvenient to you, clearly.

Really? How and why is it in the slightest bit inconvenient for me? Do tell.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Apr 2013  #21
Really? How and why is it in the slightest bit inconvenient for me? Do tell.

Everyone reading this thread can see it, very clearly. Like I said, your show is over, now keep talking to yourself, grown ups will discuss serious issues without you.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
12 Apr 2013  #22
As for the truth of the statement 'some Poles participated in the killing of Jews during WWII', t

but I'm not talking about some but about the same sentence without added by you word some?I'm asking if such generalisation used in circumstances d described by the OP is a slander and a lie or not - according to you that is?

Harry cut that BS! My qestion is simple enough can I get a straight answer out of you or not?
Harry
12 Apr 2013  #23
I'm asking if such generalisation used in circumstances d described by the OP is a slander and a lie or not - according to you that is?
Harry cut that BS! My qestion is simple enough can I get a straight answer out of you or not?

It is true to say "Some Poles killed Jews during WWII".
It is a lie to say "No Poles saved Jews from the holocaust".
If one wanted to generalise, it would be most accurate, or least inaccurate anyway, to say 'Poles neither killed Jews during WWII nor saved Jews from the holocaust' as most Poles neither killed Jews nor saved them. Personally I would never make that generalisation.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
12 Apr 2013  #24
If one wanted to generalise, it would be most accurate, or least inaccurate anyway, to say 'Poles neither killed Jews during WWII nor saved Jews from the holocaust' as most Poles neither killed Jews nor saved them. Personally I would never make that generalisation.

So can we have a debate on PF without you constantly chirping in saying yeah yeah but Jews were also killed by Poles in a thread talking about help, an enormous an unprecedented help given to Jews by many Poles during the war. I think in that way you are insulting all those Poles who sacrificed their lives and often life of their families to save Jews during the war.

You can have you say in appropriate thread but I think it is insulting to the Polish nation to be seen and debated only in the light deeds of few individuals mostly form criminal class.

I think that those who actively helped far outweighs those few who actively prosecuted Jews.
I think that WWII for Poland and Poles is much more than Jews.
Wroclaw Boy
12 Apr 2013  #25
Really? If someone says something false, but is really very cultured about it, that's OK and you can leave it that, because they "weren't an a-hole"? If you don't put people straight pretty soon everybody is gonna repeat those "misconceptions" you speak of.

Understandably it is not you concern.

You are both Polish mask98 is not, he basically only comes here (PF) to massage his own ego.
Harry
12 Apr 2013  #26
So can we have a debate on PF without you constantly chirping in saying yeah yeah but Jews were also killed by Poles in a thread talking about help, an enormous an unprecedented help given to Jews by many Poles during the war.

This thread is about that exact topic, which is why I'm discussing it.

The best way to counter anti-Polish feeling people might have is not to lie about Polish people. Claiming that all Polish people only did good things is patently false and is not going to change anybody's opinions about Polish people.

I think that those who actively helped far outweighs those few who actively prosecuted Jews.

You might be right there (if you dropped the word 'far').

I think that WWII for Poland and Poles is much more than Jews.

On that we very much agree.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
12 Apr 2013  #27
The best way to counter anti-Polish feeling people might have is not to lie about Polish people.

I think that best way to show them a middle finger and if they buzz kick them in the scrotum.

Claiming that all Polish people only did good things is patently false and is not going to change anybody's opinions about Polish people.

Nobody is claiming that, it is rather Jews have that lasting impression that during WWII all Jews were victims and were good which is also patently false.

You might be right there (if you dropped the word 'far').

I say far because either we judge nations by the deeds of their elites and/or majority of population or we Judge them by the deeds of their criminal class.I think that criminal class would doom everybody equally so there is no sense to do it.

This thread is about that exact topic, which is why I'm discussing it.

But some thread are not about bad Poles doing bad thing but about good Poles doing good things and yet you feel compel to post there with the same.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,492
12 Apr 2013  #28
MAN: No I don't mean militarily, I mean for their [Polish] participation in the killing of the Jews..

As one cannot deny antisemitism in the pre-war Poland, and of course cannot deny several pogroms that took place in Poland immediately after the war, the "participation in the killing of the Jews" in the views of this New-Yorker seems to imply the participation of Poland in the state-organized, mass-scale industrial methods of killing Jewish people in concentration camps.later on referred to as "Holocaust". The term "Polish concentration camp" reflects pretty well the tendency for hiding the truth about those who had organized such methods of murdering people. Excuses that the authors meant the "geographical location" of those camps are simply worthless, and look particularly shameful when used by the Germans. Mixing the role of the German Nazi organizers with whoever collaborated with them in sending Jews into those camps, including those Polish people who did it during the war, is an abuse which is aimed entirely to blame the Polish since there is ultimately no mention of "German" or "Nazi" in the famous term "Polish concentration camp".
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
12 Apr 2013  #29
MAN: "Yeah...Poland...they didn't really put on a good show during WW2..."

ME: You mean for losing..? Kind of hard to put on a good show when you're being double teamed by Hitler and Stalin..

MAN: No I don't mean militarily, I mean for their participation in the killing of the Jews..

What did he say wrong? He certainly was right - some Polish scum did indeed participate in the killing of Jews.

Perhaps the most sensible answer would have been to agree that such acts should never happen again and that you work to fight racism. Your appreciation of Polish history should tell you that Poles did take part in some events, and that Poland certainly lost some credit in the eyes of the world for her actions then. You could then also point out that Polish-Jewish relations are very warm these days, and perhaps shared a heartwarming story about a Polish family that risked death to protect Jews.

You could also have pointed to the flourishing Jewish scene in Krakow and Wroclaw.

Some English scum did rape children.

Indeed. Every nation has horrible parts and great parts.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
12 Apr 2013  #30
What did he say wrong?

Come on don't pretend to be dim!
precipitating is not about few people- ah **** it

I must strongly agree with Grzegorz in yet another thread he posted - Poland is attracting strange people.


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