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Poles born under Russian control - are we Russian?


Rudy5 13 | 36
7 Sep 2012  #1
If the Poles were under Russian control for that long, could someone consider them selves part Russian? Technically it's true, our ancestors were under Russian rule and in a way somewhat citizens.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
8 Sep 2012  #2
Very silly. Off course not, but if you want to consider yourself russian, whatever floats your boat. The Russians were under the control of the Mongols for a lot longer than the Poles were under the control of the Russians, yet i doubt if too many Russians would consider themselves to be Mongols, that is despite the fact that politically speaking they take their inspiration from Asia.
strzyga 2 | 993
8 Sep 2012  #3
Technically it's true, our ancestors were under Russian rule and in a way somewhat citizens.

Then I'm Austrian too. And Hungarian.
pawian 153 | 8,369
8 Sep 2012  #4
yet i doubt if too many Russians would consider themselves to be Mongols, that is despite the fact that politically speaking they take their inspiration from Asia.

Tricky! :):):):)

Then I'm Austrian too. And Hungarian.

Hey, what about Prussian???

Speak for your own stupid ancestors, but not for all Poles.

Delph, come on, show some sense of humour..... :):):):)
strzyga 2 | 993
8 Sep 2012  #5
Hey, what about Prussian???

Nope :) not Prussian, but German, yes... after all my ancestors lived under the General Government.
SeanBM 35 | 5,809
8 Sep 2012  #6
If the Poles were under Russian control for that long, could someone consider them selves part Russian?

If you go back long enough we are all every nation, we all share the same genes.

? Technically it's true, our ancestors were under Russian rule and in a way somewhat citizens.

There were 3 partitions of Poland (I think that is what you are talking about?).
Doesn't make Polish people Russia citizens.
You could also be talking about the Soviet Union, were it is my understanding that Poland was a Russian puppet state but that is arguable.

You have another thread about Russians raping Polish women, it did happen to some but there were and are still Polish/Russian consenting marriages.

If you are more specific, we can answer your question better.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
8 Sep 2012  #7
but there were and are still Polish/Russian consenting marriages.

Indeed, I have a friend that's the product of one such marriage :)
SeanBM 35 | 5,809
8 Sep 2012  #8
Did WR marry his Russian princess?
Bieganski 17 | 906
8 Sep 2012  #9
If the Poles were under Russian control for that long, could someone consider them selves part Russian?

No, I don't believe so. The Russians have used two words to distinguish between themselves who are ethnic Russian (русский) and those who are Russian nationals but of a different ethnicity (российский).
TheOther 5 | 3,751
8 Sep 2012  #10
There were 3 partitions of Poland. Doesn't make Polish people Russia citizens.

Are you kidding? Of course they became Russian, Austrian and Prussian/German citizens after the territory of Poland was annexed and the country disappeared from the maps. They just didn't change their ethnicity, which was Polish.
archiwum 13 | 125
23 Sep 2012  #11
In my other threads I have mentioned the book.Polish Surnames&Meanings by William F. Hofman.

It get's into origins of surnames.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
31 Jan 2014  #12
If the Poles were under Russian control for that long, could someone consider them selves part Russian?

By citizenship, yes. Nationality/ethnicity, no. Same with my ancestors as Jews-we are Poylishen Yidn, but not Poles.
Wulkan - | 3,255
31 Jan 2014  #13
Poles born under Russian control - are we Russian?

Obviously not lol
lunacy - | 73
31 Jan 2014  #14
Ah, this question is always so silly.
I always give the example of Tibet - officially it belongs to the territory of China (as Tibet Autonomous Region), but no Tibetan would call him/herself Chinese. Tibetans have their own history, culture, traditions, religion, etc. etc. etc. It was basically the same with Poland under the partitions.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
31 Jan 2014  #15
Not really. Some relatives called themselves Russian, others Polish and Lithuanian, one Hebrew-and that was Rochla Andrelewitz (You have to look closely to see the stroke on the "d".).
lunacy - | 73
31 Jan 2014  #16
Well, you're forgetting that Poland was a real melting pot back then, full of different cultures living next to each other. Your personalancestors could be mixed, it wasn't that uncommon. Your "Russian" ancestor could be indeed Russian or russified. "Poland" before partitions was actually Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, people were moving/travelling freely, so it's completely normal that you could have Lithuanian ancestry that was living in the Polish territory under partitions. etc. etc.

To simplify - there were Polish people callingand feelingthemselves Polish, there were Lithuanian people following their Lithuanian traditions, there were Ukrainians cherishing their Ukrainian legacy, same with Jews, Belarusians, Armenians, Lemkos, Tatars and tens of other cultures - all were living here under the partitions.

If there's a question particularly about Poles born under Russian control - the natural answer is: they were Polish.
TheOther 5 | 3,751
31 Jan 2014  #17
The "natural" answer looks a bit different: they were Russian citizens, but ethnic Poles.

living in the Polish territory under partitions

After 1831, there was no such thing as a Polish territory.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
31 Jan 2014  #18
Well, mine were ethnic Jews; but some lived in Vilna, etc.; others in Bose, etc.; some in Belorussian cities, and some in the Ukraine.
TheOther 5 | 3,751
31 Jan 2014  #19
There were of course a whole bunch of ethnicity living under the rule of the partitioning powers.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
31 Jan 2014  #20
I know that; and I'm saying that they identified themselves based on either where they were born or to pass-sometimes both.
Paulina 9 | 1,453
31 Jan 2014  #21
After 1831, there was no such thing as a Polish territory.

I guess for Poles there was :)
lunacy - | 73
31 Jan 2014  #22
After 1831, there was no such thing as a Polish territory.

Territory that was Polish before the partitions or: territories that were ethnically Polish. Also: just reminding you that there was for example such thing like Kingdom of Poland also known as Congress Poland (or informally Vistula Land) under the partitions - a puppet state of Russia - the russification of it was strenghtened only after the uprisings. "Polish territory under partitions" is a correct term widely used by historians in the meaning of ethnicity.
TheOther 5 | 3,751
31 Jan 2014  #23
just reminding you that there was for example such thing like Kingdom of Poland also known as Congress Poland

Guess why I wrote 'after 1831' ... :)

I guess for Poles there was

Well, who knows? 'For Poles' is a generalization which implies that all ethnic Poles were ardent patriots fighting for their freedom at every opportunity. I've never seen any statistics that show what percentage of the ethnic Polish population was actively involved in the uprisings for example, and how many of those were city dwellers and farmers. I would really be interested in such data, so if you know a good source please post it.

I'm saying that they identified themselves based on either where they were born or to pass-sometimes both.

Yes. There's a difference between citizenship and ethnicity; that's why we have these discussions all the time.
Paulina 9 | 1,453
31 Jan 2014  #24
TheOther, why does it bother you so much? I've never could understand this and I still don't. Poland didn't turn into Germany, Austria and Russia. It remained Poland. We have an independent Poland now and it's super cool that we do :) Get over it maybe, I don't know...
lunacy - | 73
31 Jan 2014  #25
Guess why I wrote 'after 1831' ... :)

What about the January Uprising?:) Polish territory (ethnically) was never a fully integrated part of Russia. There were completely separated civil laws established for the provinces of the Kingdom of Poland, an example could be that book from 1896: archive.org/details/grazhdanskezako00polagoog
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
31 Jan 2014  #26
Yes. There's a difference between citizenship and ethnicity; that's why we have these discussions all the time.

I know that; but on the Ellis Island and other records, only Rochla identified as of the Hebrew "race"/people.
TheOther 5 | 3,751
31 Jan 2014  #27
why does it bother you so much?

It doesn't 'bother' me as you say, I'm simply curious because half of my ancestors came from Poland. As someone with a keen interest in genealogy, I want to understand under what circumstances - both politically and economically - people had to live. I don't care about the distorted patriotic view of historic events, and I'm therefore particularly allergic to any attempt to rewrite history (which happens all too often on PF, IMO). Call it a fad if you like.

So, are you able to answer my question regarding the participation of ethnic Poles in the uprisings? :)
lunacy - | 73
31 Jan 2014  #28
So, are you able to answer my question regarding the participation of ethnic Poles in the uprisings? :)

Why are you so interested in that so much? And BTW if you'd read more about the partitions, you'd understand that after the uprisings plenty of people had to hide the fact of fighting or even change their identities / escape abroad in order to avoid the repercussions from Russia - the collection of data wasn't as easy as e.g. during the wars of 20th century, especially because all the communication was strictly controlled by Russians. There were better or worse organized groups of volunteers - soldiers - that were not only of Polish ethnicity. If you're interested, here's for example scan of a book which author was tryingto collect surnames (with short bios) of the people that died during the years 1861-1866 only (during the uprising and further repercussions):

Souvenir for Polish families: short messages biographical lost on scaffolding, shot, killed on the battlefield and died in prisons, tułactwie and Siberian exile since 1861-1866: from official sources, journals Polish, however, as with oral administrations of credible and comrades.

pbc.rzeszow.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=2217
I can look for other data tomorrow if you're interested.

Poland didn't exist back then in the modern meaning of a "country", but it was a separated part of Russian Empire. Funnily, if you'll ever have the occasion to have a talk with a Russian historian, you'll notice that they sometimes have a tendency of naming that part of their history: an "union" with Poland. Most of Russian documents of that time were using the term Tsarstvo Pol'skoye (Kingdom of Poland) when describing the (ethnically) Polish territory. Russian wiki site is quite interesting.

Why are you so interested in that so much?

Ah, repetition, an obvious sign that I should go to sleep already. I'm sorry if there are any grammar mistakes (still improving my English and it's late here).

I found an official list of generals and soldiers of the 1930 uprising: pbc.rzeszow.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=2316&language=en

Book memorial in the 50-year anniversary of the 1830 Uprising containing the list of names of commanders and headquarters officers-, indeed officers, non-commissioned officers and soldiers of the Polish Army in the same year decorated with the Military Cross "Military Virtue"

Forgot to add: that book from 1930 has a full list of generals & officials and then a list of those soldiers who were awarded with the Virtuti Military order (not all soldiers).
pulptress
4 Jan 2015  #29
On the ship manifest (arrived 1913) for my ggm, it lists Russia as the nationality, Polish as the race/people. That side of the family has always been considered Russian. The other gg parents on that side of the family, considered themselves Polish; they came here in the 1890s. So yes, it really all depends on individual choice.


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