REFUSED A HOLIDAY VISA TO THE U.S CAUSE IM POLISH

Could you please give me the link to the overstay stats?

Show me some proof that there's a different reason for Poles to be denied visa to the US.

Maybe I ask you a question instead to play your game. If you are an American as you say, why do you worry so much about this problem? To my knowledge whoever can provide a written proof of property in Poland (house, business etc.), gets a visa to the US.

All they want to make sure is that the person who enters the US will have a reason to go back home. As far as your digging in the visa overstaying statistics, well if you are so concerned about it, why not call the Embassy in Warsaw and ask? I'm sure you'll find someone over there to explain it to you. I'm (few others here too) convinced that the reason for some Poles to be denied is because so many of them overstayed visa in the past and some of them are still doing it now.

Maybe I add to it that I personally wouldn't mind if they get rid of visa for Poles to enter the US.

no, i'm lying about that, completely full of sh*t. you caught me!


the refusal rate as well as the over stay rate make up the criteria for the VWP. i'd just like to see the numbers, that's all.

A higher percentage of Poles illegally overstay their visas than residents of any other major country, said INS researcher Robert Warren.
There are many articles everywhere denoting how many Poles overstay their visas.

Seriously? When that article was written, there was an East Germany, the Baltic countries and the Ukraine didn't exist, and the current president was in his 20s...

hey why don't we solve this problem for good man? I know it won't make you any difference to call me so I finally shut up about it. I also promise to apologize on this forum and announce that you're not lying and that I was wrong.

How about that man?
Ready to go for it? I'll send you my phone # right away.

sure...but if i turn out to be an american, you have to petition the government to provide visa refusal rates. send over the number.

I apologize, convex is an American, we're just talking on the phone.lol

I had no idea it was that difficult to get a holiday visa to this country? HA, not laughing at you, just seems ironic with all the undocumented people here. Perhaps that is the reason.

I would doubt "having property" is an automatic visa for Poles. it would be easy to fenagle something like that on paper. mommy and daddy pay for the apt., you live in it and it's under both the current resident's name and the parents as well as co-signers. that person then goes to the US and never comes back, parents can then for example rent the place out to someone else in the meantime, etc. etc.

anywho, when i think of Poland, it's in a unique situation. the western countries have better industry, better cities, better weather, more tourism, more people from developed countries living there, etc. Because of this, less desire to leave it. Less desire to leave means less people overstaying visas elsewhere because they are happy with where they were born.

on the other side of the spectrum, you have the poorer countries. in general, they can't afford to travel around, and very few speak english. it is also worth noting that these countries generally don't have a sanctuary to go to in say America, meaning, a city with thousands of Botswanians or Estonians so that they can find work and support groups to help them along in the beginning.

Poland is kinda in between. economy is up, but mainly due to foreign investors. there are some rich Poles in Poland, but most people earn shite wages and live with mom and dad in a 50 sq. meter apt. Affording a decent car is near impossible and buying a nice house near your job on typical wages.....utterly impossible. Not to mention, they're always just a bit behind the rest of Europe.

As far as going to America, it's tempting for several reasons. Aside from an obviously higher standard of living, basic essentials are affordable. Also, you have many Polish sanctuaries in America. You can get off the plane with literally no English and be perfectly fine in Chicago, Greenpoint Brooklyn, etc. etc. Not to mention, you're almost guaranteed to have at the very least a second cousin or some distant uncle living there to hook up with when you arrive.

With all that said, the American govt. knows it, and knows it better than any of us do. They know the stats regardless as to whether they put them on the internet or not. The VWP has not been granted to Poland and I'm sure that if there are any bad reasons for it, there are just as many good reasons for them denying Poland. Not to mention, let us not forget about the fact that the Polish govt. very well may not want to be part of it due to the possibility of an exodus of skilled laborers along with highly educated people to give "the American dream" a shot. all too often I have students that fit those profiles and after their first visit to America, they are blown away and say, "if I had the opportunity to live/work there, I would." DISCLAIMER: not everyone of course, but several.

I'm talking about official documents and not some kind of statement. Actually this is what I was told by Polish people. I never did any research on it.

I think that probably plays a huge role as to why Poland isn't part of the VWP. You don't really have large communities of Czechs or Slovaks in the US to provide support.

I think the same can be said of the Baltic countries and the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary. Regarding the cars, I beg to differ. There are lots...and lots of new little compact cars roaming the streets. We can thank cheap credit for that.


I think that it's a huge disservice not to make that information public. Poles should know exactly why they weren't included, and all their neighbors were. If not just for the goodwill aspect of it. There would be a lot less Poles questioning why troops were offered up for Iraq for instance, when over 80% of the populace was against it. Same goes for missle defense (I don't want to get into the merits of either of those issues, but the popular sentiment was hugely against both). Regarding a shot at the American dream, the Polish government has no problem with a million of its citizens heading to the UK, so I don't think that was an issue. Money earned abroad is a large factor in building of the middle class here in Poland, something that the Polish government is encouraging.

Your analysis falls down when you consider that Australians are one of the groups that are renowned for massively overstaying tourist visas. Americans too actually.

The mistake you make is assuming that people only earn on one job. A teacher might only earn 2000zl a month - but what about the vast amount of unreported private lessons? Trust me, official figures do not tell the whole story in Poland.

Buying a nice house near your job won't happen in Poland, or in most of Europe due to one simple factor - the cities aren't designed that way. Let's not forget that for most Europeans in cities, living in a nice house isn't really achievable. Even fairly wealthy Parisiens live mostly in flats.

As for being a bit behind the rest of Europe - right now, I'd argue Poland is ahead of Portugal and Greece in terms of economic stability.


And thus Poland should tell America where to go, including making it exceptionally difficult for them to gain residency here until the VMP is implemented for Poland.

Ultimately, America has got everything out of Poland that she wanted. Unfortunately, Poland was seduced by Americans in 1989 and still hasn't really figured out that America isn't going to do anything to help out of goodwill. I wonder how quick Bush would have pushed through the VMP for Poland if Poland had made it clear that the missile defence shield relied upon it?

it was a trade off. join the EU and reap the benefits of that, but risk lots of Poles leaving.

Poland is lobbying for freedom to work in Germany, I'm not so sure that keeping Poles in Poland is that high on the list.

I don't think Poland is particularly bothered about losing many of the workers who would be doing menial jobs in Poland - there are still plenty of others that won't go anywhere, and it helps to push the unemployment rate down.

The trend in Poland is now for young, educated workers to stay and make their fortune in Poland - it's not 2004 anymore. There's also the point that many employers aren't looking at "I washed dishes for 2 years in the UK" as being particularly relevant.

i'd be curious as to how many Americans actually live/work in Poland. here in Wroclaw, i'd venture to say under 100. country wide? 3,000 is probably an overestimate. of those 3,000, they're either teaching English or are transplants working as managers, directors, presidents, etc. Of these mentioned jobs, each and every one of them significantly improve Poland's economy in the long run. Showing Poles how to operate big businesses and teaching them English. Good deal.

Telling America that gaining residency is now going to be more difficult till you implement the VWP for Poland is hardly a bargaining chip.


why is that unfortunate? what were the adverse effects?

I'd agree with you there, fellow Wromerican.

Yes, I want to know!


Indeed !


Quite right!


I would like it very much!
And lack of such statistics and numbers make me suspicious:)
Its a nice summary of what I was saying all along and had to fight with many fool's and accusations of hate or anti-Americanism or had to repeat all over again my arguments and questions.

I hope that you can understand now my position and my arguments and concentrate on the issue not on trivia - my temper:)

In all fairness, I don't believe that there is any kind of job that these people might
be doing that couldn't have been done equally well by a Pole (even in the English
teaching department). Don't get me wrong - I don't mind American people working
in Poland at all, they are a nice addition to our society. They, by and large, share
our vaules and respect our customs and traditions - fair play to them, but let's not
overestimate their infulence on Polish economy.


To hell with bargaining and all the visas issue - I used to be angry about it,
but I got over it. Sure, it'd be nice to visit US, see the baseball game, drive
some classic muscle car and spend some of my hard-earned money travelling
around the country, but then again - there are many other places in the world
worth seeing and I'd really hate to go to where I'm not welcomed.

We should just introduce exactly the same visa laws for Americans (just
for the sake of fairness and balance in mutual relations) and forget about
the issue.

If that were the case, Poles would be doing those jobs and not expats on €1500 a day contracts.


For short term visas, that's no longer possible. For long term visas...well, there's not a whole lot of difference...

Good question. I don't think there are any accurate statistics, as the last census was a long time ago. There's also the question of the many that have overstayed in Schengen as a whole - of which no figures will reliably exist.


Teaching English is hardly a big deal - in fact, I'd question the worth of allowing non-EU English teachers to reside in the first place. The demand can probably be met from the existing EU - there's really no need to grant work permits to non-EU citizens to teach. Unfortunately, Poland has a very lax work permit system based more on ticking boxes than anything else. Certainly, there's enough non-EU citizens with EU passports to meet the demand.

As for the American way to run businesses - well, the jury is out. American banks and big business hasn't done too well lately, has it?


It's not much of a bargaining chip, but if it was implemented alongside a general policy of non-cooperation with America until the VMP is introduced for Poles, you'd likely find America agreeing sooner rather than late. Unfortunately, the time to implement this was in 2003, not in 2010.


Do you know anything about Poland in 1990? The "shock therapy" is controversial, even today.


Is there really anything that Poles can't do? About the only thing that really comes to mind is defence issues. Then again - there's the point that foreign businesses will always prefer to have a safe, known pair of hands rather than rely on the natives.


Well - it is perfectly possible for Poland to introduce ultra-tough visa requirements for non-EU citizens. There's nothing in EU law stopping Poland from doing so - it could actually send a strong political message to Washington that Poland won't be messed about any longer.

Having said this - I wonder how much longer the VMP will last for.

It's simply the Polish inferiority complex which, unfortunately, still manifests itself
that way - hiring foreigners and paying them as if they were some kind of demi-gods.
It will end one day, mark my words - the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy,
growing heavy for the vintage ;)

I repeat again - there is no job that our American friends may be doing in our
country that couldn't have been done equally well by a Pole (well, maybe I'm
wrong if they are baseball coaches - but that's pretty much it ;)).

As Polish companies are becoming more international, more of those specialist contracts are coming up. The middle management and program/project management contract expat jobs are going away as we speak.


Still going to have to go against you there, American management tends to have a lot more exposure to the global environment than their Polish counterparts, that will change with time of course, but don't hold your breath. The global experience just isn't here yet. I haven't once met a Pole in a management position in North America or Asia. Germans, French, Island Monkeys, Swiss, Scandinavians, but very few Central/Eastern Europeans.

Regarding the local market, I think there is still quite a bit of knowledge that could be transferred to Polish companies.

Americans (and to a lesser extent, the French and British) are fantastic at getting their way into expat jobs that pay a small fortune - I've never quite understood it, but it's true. The amount of money thrown down to the drain to subsidise the British Council and their overpaid jobs are a particular source of amusement for me...

well the reason why foreigners are being paid more than Poles in Poland is because none of us would work for 10pln/h, simple is that. As far the second part of your statement I disagree with you too. Do you believe that Poles pronounce English like native speakers? I was teaching in Poland and I never met any Pole who spoke like a native speaker.

I'm all for knowledge transfer, but the jobs could have been done by our specialists.
They obviously don't have as much experience as their American counterparts, but
how are they going to get that experience if they're not getting the jobs?

Oh, well - I guess it's the private companies we're talking about, so they can do
whatever they want with their money (however, I still think that it's the inferiority
complex playing a big role in many of the cases of hiring a foreign manager instead
of a Polish one).


Did any of the Poles you taught spoke as a native speaker after you taught him?

Didn't think so.

I've had six English teachers in my life (two of them being native speakers) and I have
to honestly say that I learnt more from Polish ones (one of them was actually Russian :)).

I know two that are genuinely convincing - in fact, the only thing they fall down on is when you use specialist vocabulary. But then again, natives are the same.


Probably that, and a lack of trust in Poland and her workers. To a certain extent, it's understandable - Poles have done a really lousy job of getting themselves noticed abroad, not helped by the way that many well educated people took rubbish jobs.


You're not the only one with that sentiment. I've heard the same thing repeated from others - the only real advantage that natives have is that they can teach virtually any topic without much preparation, whereas a Polish teacher is likely to have to put in some serious effort to pick up a new topic.

Even outside of the management area, I've been looking a network engineer in Warsaw for about 6 months now. The knowledge just isn't here. Same thing goes for an operations manager for an aircraft charter operation, there just isn't anyone here that can fill the role. I would much rather pay a generous Polish wage than a Swiss expat wage, but I just can't find people with the skills. Lets both hope that changes soon.


That is a huge, huge problem in upper management.


My woman pulls off a pretty convincing native speaker.

Well, I have no reason to disbelieve you, Convex. You sound like a sensible man,
but what you're saying is very surprising to me. We managed to do our own engineering
and aircraft operations ourselves for years before 1989 and now we're suddenly out of
specialist? That's disturbing.


Amen.


I've learnt my English from Polish teachers (and one Russian) and I'm far from speaking
like a native, but when I worked in Ireland the Irish used to take me for an American
and were very surprised to hear that I'm Polish - so I guess my teachers did a good
job :-)