Would like to move back to Poland from New York after living in USA for 20 years.

I guess that in America study choosing is more money oriented, because studying is not free. So it's kind of investment. But on the other hand that doesn't stop people to choose stupid courses.

f stop wrote:


That's a completely different discussion.


Regardless of how much an education costs in money, it's an investment in time. A doctor goes through what.....12 years of school on average? Why put yourself through such a stringent and demanding program, missing out on all the earning and investing and networking you could have done while in your late teens, twenties, early thirties....only to come out and make crap money.

Well for me it has been 23 years. I lived all over the world, Europe, USA and Asia and I have to say it doesn't matter where you live and how much you earn you will have to pay the same bills just in a different currency.

For example if you earn (just an example):
2000PLN, 2000$ or 2000EUR, you still have to pay 1000PLN/1000$ or 1000EUR in rent somewhere and you will have still the same expensive just in a different currency.

I did some research in the last two weeks (expenses are based on what I've paid in the States, Washington State, Germany and Poland is based on my friends expenses)

POLAND/ USA / GERMANY
Income 2500PLN / 2500U$ / 2500EUR

Internet/phone/TV is 100PLN / $99 / 80EUR
rent for a good size apt is 1300PLN / $1200 / 800EUR
car insurance 130PLN / $ 150 / 250EUR
Gas/Water 80PLN / $ 120 / 60EUR

The only difference is when you travel from Germany to Poland you have 4 times as much money to spend/invest, if you from the USA you have 3 times as much money to spend/invest than the locals, so you are a little rich for limited time in Poland.

I have also researched buying/building homes and buying cars. The homes and cars have Western European prices (Homes 350.000PLN, Audi 108.000PLN) meaning they are expensive for Polish people and for you if you decide to move.

For me I will keep working, enjoying my daily life and save so I can move back and have enough money cash to buy myself new cars. Because I love having a new car every few years :-)

I hope these numbers can be of some help to some of you.:-)

Cheers,

no, no, and no. i'll chime in here about the USA because it's on topic and refers to the OP.

the average salary in Poland is what.....without getting into an argument over what poll is accurate and what is not, let's just say it's 3,000PLN net. if you wanted to buy a brand new BMW in Poland, you're looking at spending years of your salary. if you work in the USA, you'd spend about 1 year of an average worker's salary for say a nicely equipped 328i.

you mentioned "homes" and you used 350,000. if a "home" runs you 350,000 PLN (hard to believe that would get you anything more than a small flat, that's about what my wife and I sold our 50sq. meter flat for in 2011. a friend of mine lived in a town home in Bielany, about 110sq. meters, 15 kilometers from the center of Wroclaw, and she said it was assessed at 600,000PLN in 2011) you're looking at many Many MANY years of salary to pay for it. My house in the USA, brand new construction, 300 sq. meters, property, driveway, Jacuzzi tub in the master bathroom, central air, 2 car garage, brick siding, community Olympic sized swimming pool, tennis courts.....less than half of your 350,000 number.

it's simply incorrect, bud. let's not even get into the fact that in the USA, there's no VAT. or the fact that gas is probably 3 times cheaper.

I am not standing on a soap box here saying the USA is the greatest place on earth, I'm simply responding to your post and saying that if you want to discuss cost of living, compared to Poland, it's a no contest.

As somebody who is Polish but was raised in the US I see why the OP would want to move back, Poland is an awesome place. Especially when most of your family is in Poland its just nice to be with family and the culture is much different from the US (in a better way). The food is also much better and healthier as is the overall lifestyle as well. But as many have said in this thread its pretty unrealistic unless you are prepared for a drop in standard of living.

First off the area of Poland that is Mazury is pretty poor, aside from being a destination for people to go enjoy the lakes during the summer there isn't much there, even the roads are still pretty poor compared to the rest of Poland, not much has changed over the years there. Polish summers are awesome, the weather is perfect but the winters I hear are not very pleasant, I haven't been to Poland yet during the winter but I hear its something like Minnesota in the US, very cold and lots of snow depending on where you live.

Another thing is in Poland right now its much harder to get a job if you are around 40 or older, not that its easy even for younger people, I'm assuming the OP is 35-36, keep that in mind. I am 23 and could have a job arranged for me in Poland but the pay is much lower and I also speak Polish with an accent and not "perfectly", so it would be harder to get something better. Even with a crappy job in the US you can still have a car, place, etc and live within reason, social mobility even with the problems in the US is still not too bad but in Poland its different. It seems like you are established in NY, why not stay until retirement and then move to Poland with US dollars saved up and social security. I had relatives who had good jobs in NY move to Sopot when they retired and they live very well, thats actually something I am considering if the situation stays as it is now.

Poland is a great country and I think its changing for the better constantly, another 10 years and there will be much better infrastructure and probably more things familiar to us in the the US. Unfortunately its a country where the wages are low and there is less money around, I can't see how starting over in Poland would be a good decision, especially outside of a major city.

I am sure you can find plenty of decent houses in PL for PLN350k - in smaller towns + villages. Property prices are mostly about location. You say PLN175k for your fancy new house-where would that be? In my area (commuting distance to NYC), in a neighbourhood with decent schools, you need to pay $500k MIN for any old house. (Add to that $8-12k property tax/yr).


True, no VAT, but we pay property and sales taxes instead (even on used cars)! If you care to look into things like childcare and summer camp/activities costs for children, they can easily be 5-8x those in PL.


That certainly seems to be true for majority of cases. But again, all depends on your particular circumstances, as there are many well to do folks in PL living a higher standard than most in US.

Jardinero wrote:


no. less than half of $350,000, not PLN. go back and read the post i was responding to.

i grew up in NJ, i know all about property costs along the river and inside the city itself, which is why you don't live there unless you're very well to do. the smart bears move down south where real estate is cheap and winters are practically non-existant.


it's moot, but i have no idea what day care costs in Poland so i'll ask: what does it cost, per month, to bring your child to day care 5 days a week in a mid sized town in Poland?

500-600PLN v $1,200. Also, in PL you will often pay 50% for a 2nd child...


but it comes at a price - typically less variety and job prospects, not to mention weaker education and cultural aspects...

Depends wildly. If you can get a place in the public day care, it can be very cheap - as little as 250zl a month for the whole day from 6ish to 5. Private ones vary wildly - there are ones for up to 2000zl in Warsaw, but 400-600zl would be normal.

Doctors and nurses (not just the US but everywhere) deserve the highest of salaries. They work in a high pressure, very demanding enviroment. They only see people when they are injured, sick or mentally ill. When they make a mistake the patient dies or is make sicker or reinjured. To attract the best they have to be compensated properly. I don't understand this discount mentality when it comes to peoples' health.

To buy a decent type of house in warsaw you need to be looking at the vicinity of 1.6 million zlote, sure homes are cheaper in country areas but try getting a job in a small town, individual income is usually accessed higher after a drinking session but don,t forget the tax rates of wage earners...a lot of poles live in better homes than the above average American and have a better life style, that is quality of life etc... Unfortunately the plight of a worker on around 3000zl a month would leave little change in his pocket after paying bills etc...the low interest housing loans are a lifesaver at the moment, but it is only a question of time when they will double and leave a lot of people in dire trouble like what occurred in the US property crash. Very little jobs are guaranteed for life in poland, some are lucky enough to have a 12 month contract, when the axe falls its almost impossible to get a new job. In the US getting work is much easier, work in the US and spend in poland is a common saying...nothing has changed.

you said 500-600, another said 400-600 and up to 2000zl in Warsaw....let's go with 600 for what I must assume is a respectable, clean, quality day care where everyone has their certifications and the place is fully insured.

you say 5-8X more in the USA compared to Poland? by the number, meaning 600, it's nearly identical.

you simply can't compare prices, man.

Hello! You guys should forget about public daycare centers and kindergarten; very few in Poland and therefore very long waiting lists. How do people do? Those who can afford rely on private facilities (expensive when good) or nannies and those who don't have money (majority of Poles), very often have one grand-mother around and if not, mother can't work. Furthermore, due to the very limited places in public facilities, it is required that both parents work full time and also Polish people living in the area for ages shall have priority over ... foreigners just off the plane, which does make sense. There are some people in PF who want to believe and make believe everything is easy in Poland, one "just needs to come and one shall have all without any effort", it's obviously the contrary (as proved by all those millions of Poles emigrating for better life) but one needs to get out of the expat or "nouveau riche" ghetto in order to know it.

to polforeigner:

i don't think anyone, expats included on PF, are claiming Poland is some land of plenty where ur handed a zloty tree at the airport. Rather, most of the expats on here put in there time and made their bones and are now leading quite comfortable lives. Certain comparisons though just can't be made.

To Fuzzy! Do read more carefully! Most messages are about how easy it is to get jobs and to make big money in Poland and obviously written by NON-Poles, at best by foreigners living in the expat and/or new rich ghetto who obviously do not know about the Polish reality. Telling someone about to arrive to Poland to just consider public kid care facilities only shows a total ignorance of the situation. When knowing Poland a tiny bit, one knows that public day care centers are in big shortage, and that they all have long waiting lists so common sense is to forget about them. The lack of public structures for young kids is one of the main reasons why Polish birth rate is so low (in Poland). Nevertheless, many PF posters believe that Poland is the land of milk and honey: "if you want something, here's there waiting just for you"! When reading this forum, one could come to the easy conclusion that Poland is the paradise on earth....(so why are there more Poles living abroad than in Poland? ;) ) Do get out of your virtual life, some of you, and look at the world the way it really is instead of imagining it!

That would be reasonable in a normal city. The prices are dramatically less outside - you can often find a very good one in a small town for 400zl if you go about 30-40km from the centre of big places. But yes, 600-700zl would be a fair price in a city.


There are plenty of very good facilities that don't cost the earth - 600-700zl as we've said. That seems pretty fair for 8-9 hours a day. They might not offer three languages and all sorts of pathetic gimmicks, but they will be solid and reliable at that price.


Why? You can get a public place quite easily where I live. The numbers of children are falling dramatically.


It's not me that thinks Piotr i Pawel is for rich Poles only.

pardon???
600PLN=$190 @ current exchange rate of 1$=3.16PLN
=> $1,200/190=6.3 more in US than in PL
that's just for one child. can do the comparison for two, with 2nd child at 50% in PL?


sorry to disappoint you, this man happens to know how to count...

everyoe seems to get this but you, jardinero.

i asked you to go back and read the post i responded to, you didn't, so i'm giving you a five cent response.

you are using $1,200/month, which is inaccurate. my family lives in NJ, one of the most expensive states in the USA, and my sister pays $800/month for an excellent facility. i didn't use Warsaw-like prices because it's not a fair depiction. you shot for the stars with $1,200. 99% of the USA pays far less than that.

Regardless of how you want to compare in the end, Poland is entirely more expensive in both respects. go to both countries, get an average paying job and then buy a 4 bedroom house, a new car, and then fill the gas tank and let me know then which country is more expensive. i'll save you the airfare for this experiment and just go ahead and let you know (especially if you were to start in PL and buy a ticket to the USA using Zloty) that Poland is more expensive.

i'm in PL now and am being reminded of this every day.

???


really? just because your sister pays what she does - how does that make my information "inaccurate"??? something tells me that logic is not exactly your strongest side... ;-)

madisonareaymca.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/fee-schedules-2011-2012.pdf?sfvrsn=6

note this is a YMCA center - and it does not get much cheaper than this. note if you are a serious professional, you will most likely need the preschool, 7AM to 6PM 5days a week - which currently is... $1,480 to $1,880/month (depends on age of child)


likewise - note I have not used a fancy facility; those could easily run in excess of $25,000/yr...


oh, i am sure in states such as KY, SC, TN, MS, etc they do. but that will certainly not be true in metropolitan areas.

good example. i look forward to see how our Slavic people coming back to Slavic world

OK. yep, you win. go ahead with your $1,880/month and "the cheapest there is". you can have it. masz.

and I'll go ahead and pay $750/month for my child's day care and my sister, who lives in New Jersey, a state more expensive than most, will continue to pay $800/month.

yep.

this forum is not (or rather should not be) about 'winning or loosing', but presenting your points which are backed by reality - something you could try for a change instead of repeating yourself, without backing, barking at the wrong tree as usual... ;-O {yawn}:

Jardinero, I remember you once claimed that an average mortgage rate in the US is $2K/month. I also distinctly remember you claiming that you can't make a comfortable living in the US on a $150K income which is more than twice the average income. Are you anti-American by any chance? :-\

another low blow... i don't recall - any chance you could quote me?! didn't think so. good night.... ;-O {yawn}

boy oh boy I'd like you to start doing just that.

you ignored my question about "Madison Area".

where, specifically, in the united states, is "the Madison area"?

Oh I think you do recall because in that same thread I showed how ridiculous your claims were of having a mortgage rate over $2K/month.

You left America, right?

haha..

Which, if he was willing to respond to my question, would prove more of the same.

I'm prrrrretty sure "Madison Area" is Madison, NJ. I am born and raised in NJ, northern NJ to be exact, and know Madison quite well. Everyone in NJ knows that if you live in Madison, chances are you're a doctor, lawyer, banker, high level executive or some sort of entrepreneur that makes a substantial amount of cabbage. I had a Google at the average house price in Madison in 2011, it's around $800,000. An upper class town with upper class prices. It's absurd to post day care and private educational institution prices in Madison, NJ, when comparing "here" vs. "there".

They all drive $100,000 cars in Madison, too. Should we use those numbers to compare the prices of automobiles?

And I'm sure you also believe they all drink $20 coffees and have $30 bagels for breakfast... if you don't know that you are talking about then please don't sell your fantasy for reality on this forum.


i had a look on zillow and it is closer to $500k - why are you skewing the facts?


i doubt you have ever set your your foot there, yet claim to know all about it. there are plenty of average professional couples who choose to move to places like that with decent enough public school system that they feel it is worth it.

to sum it up: i get the impression you are harbouring an agenda of some sort. be man enough to come out of the closet and let us hear it. who knows, maybe we'll even be able to help you with your problems. but don't mistake your wishes/fantasy for reality.

Why is 2k mortgage ridiculous? I think it's pretty standard