Would like to move back to Poland from New York after living in USA for 20 years.

if you earn say $50,000/year gross, your take home pay is usually minus about 25%, depending on how you file, number of dependents, what state you live in (7 states have no income tax for example), etc. This also depends on what your company contributes to medical benefits, whether or not you have a pension, 401K, etc.

I can only assume you did not read the article.

So they demand not being insured, demand ridiculously high prices for work and demand that people are afraid to seek treatment?

Ha! I forgot about state taxes! Just so nobody will be confused, all states have federal income taxes, and if some do not have state income taxes, they do make it up in other ways, such as sales or property taxes.

additionally, 5 states do not have sales tax.


i think what he's trying to say is that when they receive treatment, they demand the best. nobody is going to (at least not effectively) argue that America's current healthcare system is without flaws, but the treatments and technologies offered in the USA are second to none. if you plan on getting into a terrible car wreck, best to do it on American soil, it would give you the best chance of walking out of the hospital one day.

those that are uninsured are generally the lower middle class. not educated enough to have a solid career and not poor enough to be on Medicaid, which causes lapses in insurance coverage when they're between jobs.

That web calculator seems to be giving accurate enough results - most people in the lower tier will pay +/-25% in basic paycheck deductions. However, most employers do not offer free medical/dental insurance, and this could easily add $200-$1,000/month for a family depending on the employer and the level of coverage (most large employers will offer several options). In addition, most of the insurance companies will charge a small fee every time you go see a specialist (and when one buys medications) some have pretty high 'deductibles' for out-of-network specialists (sometimes even in-network). And there is the DOUBLE TAXATION (tax paid on top of your taxed income), for instance in the form of the omnipresent state tax (8.75% in NY, 7% in NJ) every time you buy an item (price says $0.99 - you pay $1.08 at the cashier) or use a service (basic supermarket food items are exempt), and property tax being very significant (2-54% of property value), or when one buys a USED car - never mind that it could have been sold and bought five times before you... So all in all, these taxes add up considerably...


That's 2-4%...

" And there is the DOUBLE TAXATION (tax paid on top of your taxed income), for instance in the form of the omnipresent state tax (8.75% in NY, 7% in NJ) every time you buy an item (price says $0.99 - you pay $1.08 at the cashier) "

Are you talking about Sales tax? 7% is very little, when in Europe its 19%-23% VAT in most of countries.

Correct, I've forgotten about the VAT in EU. However, the difference is that it is already included in the price of most items/services, and here it is not. Also, businesses can easily deduct the VAT in PL from products such as fuel - I am not sure if that is the case here.

They can, but they also have to charge their customers 23% extra in Poland.

I've read the article when it came out. The squawk about the American health care system is the cost, not the quality of care. You don't get something for nothing. All American doctors get paid in the mid six figures and the nurses in the high five and low six figures. Those salaries attract highly qualified and motivated people, This exists because people demand it. You can't gut the costs without affecting the care.

What's the situation in Poland? They (the doctors) are on the same salary schedule as the janitors? Is that true? You want that? Low bid? Doctors take money under the table for proper care? If you can pay you get the service, if not sit and wait in line like the rest of the slugs.

I have family in England, one waits three years for a hernia operation (hernia's aren't considered necessary surgery, grin and bear it) another comes down with cancer and decides to go to Spain because the doctors there treat cancer more aggressively (she survived).

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but what I am saying is that you pay for what you get.

yea, yea, I'd rather be treated by a person who became a doctor because he wanted to help the sick, than by one who became one to get rich.

Hippocratic oath my foot!

Of course, you have the same attitude towards your own salary (of course not).

What I am explaining to you is why many Americans don't want the government screwing with the healthcare system; they realize that it's going to affect the care.

I don't know any of the Americans you're talking about. Even those sitting pretty with their work health insurance are concerned about their kids not being able to get their own, and skyrocketing health costs.

Even the doctors know there is something seriously wrong here.

i don't understand.

as it is currently, a parent in the USA can insure their children with their insurance up to age 26. if their kids do not have insurance, it's because they chose to not give it to them.


i'd rather be treated by someone with the brains to not go through 12 years of college to make chump change. not an intelligent person's decision. doctors in the USA become doctors because they had the grades and the drive to do it and oh yeah, smarter people tend to pursue higher paying jobs because for them, it's actually an option.

I'm always amazed how hard it is for some people to understand that there might be other goals in life but money.. and how cranky they get when their values are questioned

Doctors are everywhere rich people. Even in Poland with their low salaries, if they're specialists then they work in free time in private clinics or own offices. They make a lot of money in this way. (Nurses and family doctors have harder live however.) Only the smartest can get accepted for public medical studies. Competition is big. The problem is that the most profitable specializations are reserved for people with connections. For the family.

I have heard that the biggest problem of high cost of American health care are high compensations for doctors mistakes, ruled by American courts. That causes doctors to pay a lot for expensive insurances and in the and the patient is paying for it. Although I haven't seen any detail analyses of public care costs to see how big percentage it is in reality.

Doctors here have to work extremely long hours and have more than one job here if they want to make decent money - and even then, the pay isn't that good.

Quite simply, there are far too many doctors here all chasing the same work.

So you'd rather be treated by someone who does it for money rather than out of a love for the job?

Strange person you are.

Median salary in Poland is 3000pln/per month. More than 50% of doctors earns above 15 000 pln per month. (in 2009)

840 thousand . zł for an annual contract for the doctor ? Yes, so much that he had not in Poland, but the Polish doctors wishing to work in the United Arab Emirates. In our country , however, already 30 percent . doctors earn more than 20 thousand . zł per month, and 55 per cent . - More than 15 thousand . zł . On the one hand , however, you can count the hospitals where basic pay specialist employed under an employment contract is coming to two national averages - says National Association of Occupational Physicians . Much better to earn contracted physicians . And the best wieloetatowcy - often more than 30 thousand . zł .

And you call 5 x median salary as not good pay? What is relation in USA then ?

Fast google search shows 150 000 per year for doctor and 26 363 for everybody

washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/the-median-us-w age-in-2010-was-just-26363-government-reports/2011/10/20/gIQAdabX0L_blog.html

the ratio is 5.7 so around THE SAME. (when taking into consideration data source error)

So wow, American doctors don't earn a lot, neither polish a little. It's proper pay in their economic environment.

15000 is a decent middle-class salary, but what about the other 50%. At 80 to 100 pln for an hour's consultation with a big chunk of that paid to the clinic for office space/receptionist and then tax taken off some of them are not doing that well at all.

read update. When you care about lower 50% then you're talking not about salary level, but distribution - how big differences should be. It's different matter than median salary level.

It's quite a big matter for those who've trained for years as a doctor and have to do three jobs while still scrimping and saving.

I'm yet to see a doctor that lives in poverty.

I know one who earns a pretty poor wage - quite hardworking too. I also know others who are working as pharmaceutical salespeople because they can earn more from the commission than they can treating patients. It isn't so much about poverty - it's about their years of training and skill level of their work in relation to their income.

Ok, but there was that case few years back- private clinic offered really good money but with one condition- they can't treat ppl elswhere. They have to come rested to work. Guess what? Not many applicants. I have a great respect for them but the truth is they have often few jobs at one time and not giving their best at any.

Yes, that's exactly the problem. When they make about the same as a semi-qualified English teacher per hour (and less in some hospitals and clinics) they need to work a lot of hours to get a good income.

I know one doctor who was doing massage and another 'iridology' because it was an extra income stream, plus another doing Amway.

yes. some doctors get flushed out of their private practices due to high malpractice insurance which can total $200,000/year or more. Lots of BS lawsuits for BS reasons.


i just looked at that link, it says nothing about doctor wages. and your numbers are completely off.

medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2013/public

this link is from medscape and it's 2013. the lowest doctor salary is $170,000, all the way up to $400,000+ and some make even more:

healthcareers.about.com/od/compensationinformation/f/TopPayDoctors.htm

Monitor, what source did you use to get "3000pln median salary" in Poland?


indeed. the absolute bare bones minimum salary in the USA for a doctor is $170,000, a rockin' salary in anyone's eyes, and that's just their salary for their day to day job.

@ FUZZYWICKETS: you're right my search was too fast and thus incorrect. The link I provided quotes median salary of average worker. But I missed that it's NET.

So, because I cannot fast find median salary for doctors in USA I will use this information about average salary, which between all population is substantially higher than median.

"An average annual income for a MD Family physician in the United States ranges from $123,347 - $178,661 per annum"

healthcare-salaries.com/physicians/medical-doctor-salary-md

so let's take around 150 000 USD

Also it's not so easy to find median annual earnings gross, but average for USA is around $54,450

150 000 / 54 000 = 2.8 times

Amount quoted here is also not sure, because other sources show much lower amount of polish doctor earnings. [wprost.pl/ar/170999/Pokaz-lekarzu-ile-masz-na-koncie/] - They took results from pools made in 384 hospitals.

GUS in 2010 wrote that median salary in Poland was 3500pln per month gross.
"Przeciętne miesięczne wynagrodzenie ogółem brutto w październiku 2010 roku wyniosło 3543,50 zł."

While here (2010) they write that median salary of specialized doctor is only 4000 - 5300 pln per month

"w Polsce mediana wynagrodzeń lekarzy I stopnia wynosi 4.000 zł miesięcznie (a więc mniej niż kelnerów lub pomywaczy w USA), a lekarzy II stopnia 5.350 zł. "

Differences are too huge to have any conclusions.

let's not, because you pulled from the lowest paying MD on the entire list. the 31 year old that just finished all his studies.

no matter that the average income for an MD specialist is listed at $339,738. or that anesthesiologists earn $370,500. or that an orthopedic MD takes home $688,503.

but that's ok, because you've concluded that this is all apparently an unsolved mystery.

you know how i conclude all this? now....this is just me but.....consider the fact that every single doctor in the USA lives in a big beautiful house and drives a $100,000 car.....and every single doctor in Poland......mmmmm.....does not.

So, which person is more likely to chose a profession solely based on financial rewards: American or Pole?