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Poland's apartment prices continue to fall


Avalon  4 | 1063  
12 Jun 2012 /  #901
those old commie blocks and 100 year old houses in "the village" are breaking down and people aren't filling them like they used to (not to mention the country's youth is moving to the cities to find jobs)

Do you mean the ones that Peterweg said would "last another 200 years" or the 1,000.000. properties that Milky states are standing empty.

I suspect you mean these :-

Most of the infrastructure of the blocks, be they strict microrayon groups, regular patterned groups or in haphazard arrangements depending on local geography, was constructed with generally low quality from water pipes and sewage to insulation and roof. The EAUE notes, "Most of the buildings have defects in the concrete slab construction and often the damage is irreparable. In addition, the areas are suffering from monotonous architecture and a lack of neighborhood contacts."[15] The first observation is physical in nature, the second psychological.

The physical problems with the buildings today are numberless: poor insulation on windows and in the buildings in general, the outside scraping off, poor plumbing and heating, disputes over ownership (and responsibility) of the common areas, small size of rooms and distance from amenities. The other imposing physical problem is that they are still occupied by residents as before the changes.[18] Poland and the entire former Warsaw Pact world faces interminable housing shortages, especially in the major cities. Ironically, Warsaw itself actually has more blocks of flats being built on the horizon, this time by capitalist developers, than it has destruction of old ones.[19]

Written 2006 but still relevant. Full artical here:-
hudsonfla.com/flats.htm
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
12 Jun 2012 /  #902
I swear, half the posters on this forum seem to be living in their grandparents' home or their girlfriend's/wife's parents' home or something to that nature and skating by rent/mortgage free

Spot on. Most of Polands housing was sold at dirt cheap prices and followed by huge inflation to wipe out the debt. Think 20K for a apartment worth 450k pln now. Asset rich families and as a consequence Poland's total mortgage debt is very low.

Most of this housing was in cities, where foreigners can buy and prices rises are greatest. In the country property can still be very cheap but foreigners cannot buy (easily) over a certain amount of land until after 2016.

at some point, poland will realize that life on their salaries simply isn't sustainable when everyone has a mortgage/rent payment. then they'll also realize that 27 is too late to be getting your first job.

Some point far in the future. A whole generation will inherit property or be funded to buy/build their own. Meanwhile, wages rise to match (falling) property costs.

You stated previously that the flat in Krakow is owned by your girlfriend and the farm is owned by her parents.

I bought a farm (with a personal bank loan, which is nearly paid off) and gave it to my wife.
BRS  2 | 48  
12 Jun 2012 /  #903
Record high discounts, demand low
Apartments on the secondary market are selling the slowest in the past three years.
That's despite the fact that owners are lowering prices. An apartment on the secondary
market is listed for an average of 168 days, i.e. close to half a year. That's the longest
since Home Broker launched its market studies in January 2009. In May the listing
time lengthened to 26 days despite additional discounts that became available during
that month. The gap between the transaction and offering price in case of apartments
has increased in the last couple of weeks to 7.2 percent from 4.5 percent in the period
from January to April.
(Rzeczpospolita, p. B1) AS
Avalon  4 | 1063  
12 Jun 2012 /  #904
The gap between the transaction and offering price in case of apartments
has increased in the last couple of weeks to 7.2 percent from 4.5 percent in the period
from January to April.

A drop of 2.7% in two weeks, at that rate of decline, I will buy 10 at Christmas and rent them out.

Go to any clothes shop in a mall. Year round sales....70% off!!!!!..70% off of what? the material cost?..the production cost?.the wholesalers cost?...the retailers cost? you add a sum on to what you will accept and use that as a bargaining tool, knowing the buyer will try to knock you down, especially in Poland. The buyer thinks they have a good deal and you get the price you want.

Take a development company, the business plan will allow for a contingency sum of say 10% for unforeseen costs on the project. If this sum is used you never did your calculations properly or you were unlucky. If you run the project properly, keep to a tight budget and do not use the 10% you can afford to give a discount on your flats and the profit margin remains the same.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
13 Jun 2012 /  #905
There are significant differences between buying property and consumables like clothes. First, houses last longer than people - you only need one and they last a life time. Consumables are transportable, trade-able and can be manufactured where labour costs are lowest and using - mainly - replaceable/renewable materials (cotton, wool).

Fixed assets like property are fixed in place, cannot me transported and are entirely dependable on the value of the land they stand on. Nobody give a flying **** what you costs are as a developer, you usually make a profit but if you do or don't it has no bearing on the cost of the fixed assets which is set by location for a given building specification.

You should know this, everybody else does.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
13 Jun 2012 /  #906
There are significant differences between buying property and consumables like clothes.

Again, you are very quick to jump in and give a negative comment without understanding what was said. My post refers to "what a % discount means". The figures used for any item can be manipulated. It can be raised so that any % reduction, looks greater than it really is. You are correct that consumables such as clothes are different from fixed assets such as houses or flats. But, do you know the "mark up" on clothes is around 200-300 %. so, taking this amount "70%" off, still leaves the retailer with a profit, even if the stock is out of fashion.

Fixed assets like property are fixed in place, cannot me transported and are entirely dependable on the value of the land they stand on.

Not quite true. If I put a wooden shed on 40 aras of land (cost of land 180,000 PLN) the value would be 185,000 PLN, if I build 12 apartments on the land, the value goes up to 3 million PLN. Even obtaining planning permission would virtually, double the value of the land. You should know this, everybody else does.

Nobody give a flying **** what you costs are as a developer,

Apart from the fact that your grammar is s*** again ("you costs", must be that university education), where did I mention anything about my costs?

While you are questioning me, lets look at this post of yours.

I bought a farm (with a personal bank loan, which is nearly paid off) and gave it to my wife.

The statement you made here is untrue and misleading.
You could not buy a farm in your name as it is agricultural land, it would have to have been purchased in your wife's name. As a student nurse, her 500 per month salary would have excluded her from a mortgage, hence the need for you to take out a personal loan.

Your post 0n January 18th this year, " Is this Mortgage Equity Withdrawal? Anyonego any (must be that university education) links to banks that offer this and the Polish terminology?" suggests that you think that you might be able to raise money on the "reverse equity scheme" proposed by the government/banks. Not possible for the same reasons you would not get a mortgage.

The monthly loan you pay on the "farm" (even if you are not living there) is an outgoing which you failed to mention to FUZZYWICKETS when replying to his question of how much your monthly mortgage cost, you only mentioned "is all that we pay, its about 450pln per month. Mostly the building repair fund (outside to be re-clad next year)". So this monthly payment (although you live in your wife's flat in Krakow) should be included as a cost for you living in Poland.

At least I do not lie in my posts. Your inexperience in most subjects shows. The old adage " It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" maybe something you should consider.To lie well, you need a good memory.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
13 Jun 2012 /  #907
Apart from the fact that your grammar is s*** again ("you costs", must be that university education), where did I mention anything about my costs?

****** browser based spell check doesn't have a grammar checker, sorry.

Not quite true. If I put a wooden shed on 40 aras of land (cost of land 180,000 PLN) the value would be 185,000 PLN, if I build 12 apartments on the land, the value goes up to 3 million PLN. Even obtaining planning permission would virtually, double the value of the land. You should know this, everybody else does.

If its in the middle of nowhere you can build 12 apartments but won't be able to sell them, you can build apartment only where you can sell them. So the value of the apartments is their locationnot the materialsthey are built from. Hence the term 'Fixed Assets' so

Not quite true

(must be that university education)

Obviously you think this is significant.

The monthly loan you pay on the "farm" (even if you are not living there) is an outgoing which you failed to mention

So this monthly payment (although you live in your wife's flat in Krakow) should be included as a cost for you living in Poland.

How is it a 'cost of living' in Poland -I don't live there and it has no bearing on my life.. Its an investment. I could sell it, pay off the 30% debt and bank the money. Does the 7% interest I would then receive from the banked money be a cost which I could negate my rent?

You have a very strange understanding of money.

At least I do not lie in my posts. Your inexperience in most subjects shows. The old adage " It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" maybe something you should consider.To lie well, you need a good memory.

I'm not lying, You simply don't understand. You fail to grasp maths, the concept of assets and the difference between income and costs.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
13 Jun 2012 /  #908
If its in the middle of nowhere you can build 12 apartments but won't be able to sell them, you can build apartment only where you can sell them.

Again untrue. I built a block of apartments in the countryside where no developer had ever built. They sold. Check with SeanBM for confirmation, he visited the site during construction.

I'm not lying.

And yet you do not refute this:

The statement you made here is untrue and misleading.
You could not buy a farm in your name as it is agricultural land, it would have to have been purchased in your wife's name. As a student nurse, her 500 per month salary would have excluded her from a mortgage, hence the need for you to take out a personal loan.

Perhaps just being economical with the truth.

So the value of the apartments is their location not the materials they are built from.

Adjacent to three lakes and a huge forest, 10 minute drive to town, nice position. Polish bank financed 50% of the build, obviously they are such not as expert on property as you. Polish banks usually take a hell of a risk when lending. Stick to software and an office, leave property alone, you would never make a living at it.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
13 Jun 2012 /  #909
You could not buy a farm in your name as it is agricultural land, it would have to have been purchased in your wife's name. As a student nurse, her 500 per month salary would have excluded her from a mortgage, hence the need for you to take out a personal loan.

I saved all that typing and said I gave it to her. I gave her the money so she bought it. No difference. I could have bought if I applied for a license and/obtained citizenship as I'm entitled.

Adjacent to three lakes and a huge forest, 10 minute drive to town, nice position.

You built three lakes and planted a forest, impressive.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
14 Jun 2012 /  #910
I gave her the money so she bought it. No difference.

There is a difference, you did not buy it and do not own it. "oh what a tangled web we weave when err we practice to deceive"

You built three lakes and planted a forest, impressive.

Do you know what the word "adjacent" means? or are you really that stupid? Where did I say I built three lakes and a forest?

As I said before, you make yourself look a prcik with every post.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
14 Jun 2012 /  #911
There is a difference, you did not buy it and do not own it. "oh what a tangled web we weave when err we practice to deceive"

I didn't say I owned it -

I bought a farm (with a personal bank loan, which is nearly paid off) and gave it to my wife.

Difference to who? I said I gave it to my wife, bought it for her, its hers, we are married. I paid for it. What the **** difference does the fact I gave her the money to buy it as opposed to buying it and giving her the farm. She owns it, I don't so what are you babbling about?

Add inability to comprehend ownership to your list.

Do you know what the word "adjacent" means? or are you really that stupid? Where did I say I built three lakes and a forest?

Stillnot figured out the concept of Fixed Assets versus commodities.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
14 Jun 2012 /  #912
You built three lakes and planted a forest, impressive.

Where did I say I built three lakes and a forest?

You never answer a question, do you? You write garbage and act like a child when you are caught out.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
14 Jun 2012 /  #913
You still don't get it.
Harry  
14 Jun 2012 /  #914
Me neither. Please do tell us where Avalon said he built three lakes and planted a forest. Then tell us how you bought a farm when you are not legally able to do that.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
14 Jun 2012 /  #915
Wrong questions. Try again.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
14 Jun 2012 /  #916
OK, Where did I say I built three lakes and a forest?
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
14 Jun 2012 /  #917
Thats the point.,The land came with that asset, not your building materials. Without the fixed asset of the land the building materials can be worthless. You cannot commoditise property because its worth is defined by its location.

So you cannot discuss the costs of building and claim you would not sell below cost because the selling price is determined by location not your cost. If its in a worthless location, its worthless, no matter how much it cost to build.
Wroclaw Boy  
14 Jun 2012 /  #918
still talking out of your backside i see weg, im still laughing about the Gdynia ia a godforsaken town one, classic.

Obviously I don't have any idea of the places you are talking about so I gave you a streetview link. Why did you chose that town in particular?

Whats even funnier is that he zoomed in on the map and placed a street view link, and still didnt figure it out.....
Avalon  4 | 1063  
14 Jun 2012 /  #919
So you cannot discuss the costs of building and claim you would not sell below cost because the selling price is determined by location not your cost. If its in a worthless location, its worthless, no matter how much it cost to build.

You have no knowledge about property development/building, as demonstrated by your replies.

With your post stating that the old communist blocks would last 200 years you proved your ignorance. Even when I posted a report from a respected, Polish researcher stating that most of these tower blocks were constructed with defective materials and were repairable, you still could not man-up and admit you were wrong again. You are a child who thinks he knows everything and you act like it.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
14 Jun 2012 /  #920
You have no knowledge about property development/building, as demonstrated by your replies.

Ok, change the subject. Stay to the subject you understand - gluing bricks together - and keep away from the things you don't - such as how or why people buy them.

still talking out of your backside i see weg, im still laughing

No, son, you are still sulking over being made to look a dickhead.
MoOli  9 | 479  
14 Jun 2012 /  #921
he built three lakes and planted a forest. Then tell us how you bought a farm when you are not legally able to do that.

Really harry are you really not that brilliant or age has got you?One can get permission to buy a farm in Poland!
Harry  
14 Jun 2012 /  #922
One can get permission to buy a farm in Poland!

Really Mr D? The problem in this case is that peterweg didn't bother to get it. Go back to trying to illegally sell dodgy cars which do not belong to you.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
14 Jun 2012 /  #923
Really harry are you really not that brilliant or age has got you?One can get permission to buy a farm in Poland!

You are the one who is not brilliant. Peterweg stated "I bought a farm and gave it to my wife", this is a lie as being a foreigner, he could buy farmland. Admittedly

he could have obtained permission to buy it himself, but that is not what he stated. For someone that does not even own any property in Poland he seems to not know an awful lot about it. He is very quick to start arguments and be pedantic with others on subjects of which he has no knowledge and when proven wrong, simply changes the subject or gets abusive. Typical childish behaviour. Remember, with age comes wisdom.
MoOli  9 | 479  
14 Jun 2012 /  #924
Really Mr D? The problem in this case is that peterweg didn't bother to get it. Go back to trying to illegally sell dodgy cars which do not belong to you.

Calm down! Sorry if I sold you a junk car:)Shouldve checked car fax:)BTW,Prices are falling try to get a Flat in a building with an elevator!Maybe a house if you can afford it!Betya Pln weak dont matter as you work in Poland:))
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
14 Jun 2012 /  #925
Really Mr D? The problem in this case is that peterweg didn't bother to get it. Go back to trying to illegally sell dodgy cars which do not belong to you.

Interesting fantasy. Why would I have to 'bother' when I didn't buy it? And here you go, yet another ad hominem attack when your bullshit is challenged

Peterweg stated "I bought a farm and gave it to my wife", this is a lie as being a foreigner, he could buy farmland. Admittedly
he could have obtained permission to buy it himself,

Admittedly you guys are clutching at straws.

Please differentiate between buying a house and giving it to you wife and giving the money to your wife to buy a house. I could have also become a citizen as I'm entitled to through my father and waited the six months.

Please harry and Avalon, explain the difference between giving the money to buy and buying it myself and giving it.

Typical childish behaviour. Remember, with age comes wisdom.

Yes, thats a very sage .

For someone that does not even own any property in Poland he seems to not know an awful lot about it.

Owning property will increase my intelligence. My name on the deed, if spelt correctly will increase my IQ ten fold.. Got it. Without it, I am utterly clueless.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
14 Jun 2012 /  #926
Yes, thats a very sage .

Are you sure that you went to University?
Harry  
14 Jun 2012 /  #927
Why would I have to 'bother' when I didn't buy it?

I do wish you'd make your mind up about whether you bought a farm or not, only two days ago you told us

I bought a farm (with a personal bank loan, which is nearly paid off)

But now you tell us that you didn't buy it.

Please harry and Avalon, explain the difference between giving the money to buy and buying it myself and giving it.

More than a few foreigners have learned to their cost the very large difference between not having their name on the title deeds of their wife's property which was bought with their money and having their name on the title deeds.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
14 Jun 2012 /  #928
Please harry and Avalon, explain the difference between giving the money to buy and buying it myself and giving it.

I give my child pocket money to buy sweets, I do not say they are mine after she buys them.
InWroclaw  89 | 1910  
14 Jun 2012 /  #929
Really harry are you really not that brilliant or age has got you?One can get permission to buy a farm in Poland!

How is that done in Poland, actually?? I have often thought it may be a good idea and was looking at agricultural land in the UK about 5 years ago when it was affordable. I thought no foreigners were allowed to buy ag land/farms until 2016.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
14 Jun 2012 /  #930
You need a license/permit. Identify the land and apply, it can be very slow.

Are you sure that you went to University?

You are very impressed by the thought of University education aren't you.

I do wish you'd make your mind up about whether you bought a farm or not, only tow days ago you told us here

I give my child pocket money to buy sweets, I do not say they are mine after she buys them.

You two are are getting confused about this. Buying something for someone or giving them the money to buy it themselves is the same thing. Especially when you give it to your wife and teh hand over of moeny/keys is done within a few minutes.

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