Poland's apartment prices continue to fall

He's a communist. No need to discuss further.


The fact he's using electricity and a computer negates that possibility.

ok got it. everything is now clear.

Sally, with all due respect, I am going to reply to you once because your response tells me you haven't really thought this one out.


No.
Choosing to drink does not promote alcoholism. Having sex does not equate to promoting sexual addiction. Eating isn't promoting obesity and drinking does not promote alcoholism.


It depends on the shop but I agree with your sentiment but not the point you're attempting to argue (I assume you're trying to call me a hypocrite in some manner or another?). Keep in mind, I am not profiting off a basic need nor am I buying more than I need in order to sell off the excess at a profit- that's the logical parallel you'd have needed to make your case.


Yes. And to a slaughter house. The more I research, the more I reduce the meat in my diet. Luckily, we do get most of our meat from a family farm.


I cannot control their actions. Here again though, the logical parallel you're looking for actually falls on those like pip. They're the ones buying more than they need and manipulating the market for personal gain. They are not producing anything. They are not delivering anything. They are not providing a service. Think about what happens when group does this on a large-scale.

Don't bother going with the comparison to a small time grocer either- the product is not similar in nature. A seller may be responsible for the transportation of goods, does provide a point of purchase for consumers and adds security to the producers themselves- they take on a risk.

You're right a large scale operation abuses their purchasing power and manipulates the market in the name of profit and would sooner throw out food than give it away for free- ask pip if she'd sooner sit on property and keep it unoccupied than let someone live there for free.


Seem to be awfully similar in some respects.


Using that logic- farmers couldn't possibly use computers or use electricity- you're not thinking clearly on this for whatever reason and your readiness name calling/labelling in place of reasoning displays this.

[quote=pip] I will leave that to the Americans.

pip, that's a very generic statement and it's not applicable to all of us.

Foreigner4, I disagree with your statement about how drinking does not promote alcoholism and that you are not benefiting from what stores chose to do. The fact is that we all benefit from this because to certain degree that's how prices on market become competitive (supply excesses demand). But there are also theories stating otherwise. The bottom line is that property market is same as any other, and unless Pip would be charging excessive amounts, there is nothing wrong with buying apartment to rent. Honestly - I wouldn't do that. To much risk and you can make better money elswhere. If anything I would buy apartment in tourist area and rent it to tourist. The reality of property market is that you should be able to make more than on bank investment, and in Poland you are on a borderline of such investment being profitable.

ah yes but you haven't answered the question- do you work for free or give away your income.

I don't buy more than I need. ever. And if you knew me you could see for yourself. And I buy mostly second hand except for obviously food. Perhaps you should target those who actually make billions off of people not a family of four who is trying to save for the future. Manipulating the market? that too is a stretch. Simply buying a flat in a state of disrepair and renovating it is not manipulating the market.

I have a colleague who works with somebody that owns 76 bachelor apartments. yes he is Polish. Perhaps he is not producing anything or delivering anything or providing a service? But a family of four is more evil.

Our hopes of buying an old 25m2 flat in order to repair it and rent it at about 2000 pln which is the market value price in Powisle, to a bunch of students- is indeed helping somebody- students need a place to live.

As for me keeping it unoccupied--of course I wouldn't let somebody I didn't know live in it rent free- would you let somebody live in your place free of charge? I don't think so.

If it was empty and the rental market tanked and I had a friend down on their luck- of course I would let them stay there.

Scottie--you are absolutely right- and sorry for the generalization.

And just for future reference if you decide you would like to insult me further- things important in my life are spending time with family, keeping active, eating healthy, giving my kids a good education without the worry of student loans and simply living.

Having the latest name brand clothing or car does not interest me or my family. Spending time as a family, traveling and being with friends is what is important to us. If you would like to slam me based on your assumption that because we are above average income than perhaps you should find out more information about me.

Slamming a family of four for wanting to provide for our children is pathetic particularly when compared to the fact that there are multi billion dollar corporations that are raping the world.

Take your anger about inequality and unfairness and do something good with it instead of standing on your soap box and telling everybody else how evil they are and how they should live. Do you work? Do you give away your income? Would you let somebody live in your house for free? Your statements are ridiculous and I would find it hard to believe that any Polish person who actually lived through martial law and socialism/communism would find your beliefs anything more than a sad joke.

I don't know you.



No ego yet you just proclaim your Canadian-ness as something special whenever you create the chance?
Give it a rest already, we get it, you're so proud of the fact you were born somewhere but choose not to live there.


I never stated what you're doing is evil. I insinuated it is greedy and if you equate that to evil then that's up to you to reconcile. If it's not greed motivated then I retract my statement. Are you planning on buying and renting out property out of motivation other than greed?

If you're going to have a go at debating what I've written, at least be aware enough not to trot out the very reasoning I already dismissed: other people do worse things; it's legal so it's okay, other people do it too. Everything you've written in attempts to justify your intended action can be boiled down to one of those attempts at reason.


I never state you were evil and I certainly didn't state it so based on any numerical value associated with your income. You want to have a go at reasoned argument then do so but make sure your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed. Chill out and mull it over in your pointy little head and get back to me.


Save your false indignation, you pretentious so and so. There are lots of people who donate more than EVEN YOU to charities and also operate with a much higher greed motivation than you- this doesn't help whatever goofy logic you're trying to run with.

What you're essentially saying is it's okay to exploit one person's need for a home as long as you donate to others who are worse off.


This is infantile reasoning. Just because your landlord rips people off big time doesn't mean taking more than you need is fine and dandy, it just means your greed is on a smaller scale.

Whatever I write, you will disagree with.

Okay, i've just read your response above this one. I can reply to it after another person posts but I thought I'd look at this gem:


Except if you're buying a property in order to rent it out.

yes. I disagree with your assumption that I am greedy. I am not. We have hopes to buy an income property so that our children will have something not so I can sit back and count the zloty. I will probably work until I die. As for being Canadian: yes it is important much like all Poles living abroad maintain their Polishness and their Polish pride. I am not taking more than I need. I am refurbishing an existing piece of property in order to give my children something

Still you are deciding what is right and wrong according to your logic in essence you are the pretentious so and so- not me. I don't dictate what is right or wrong for another person- which you seem to be doing. How is renting an apartment to a student exploiting them? So landlords just exploit? People need to live somewhere and renting a flat has been done since Roman times- there is nothing new here.

How could I ever agree with your opinion that a landlord exploits a tenant when it is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of.

Okay, i've just read your response above this one. I can reply to it after another person posts but I thought I'd look at this gem:

pip: I don't buy more than I need. ever.
Except if you're buying a property in order to rent it out.

SO WHAT!!!

So your twisted logic is only to make enough money to get by and not to save for the future? Wow, your kids will be thrilled with you once they reach college age.

Thank you very much this conversation has been most interesting. I am done. Whatever you say I am a Capitalist pig because I want my kids to have some security...not a fecking trust fund.

I want my kids to get a good education- gee that is bad too.

I never wrote a god damn thing about your god damn family so keep them out of this and stop trying to use them as a shield. It's pathetic and so are your responses.


You probably think you're actually on to something, don't you?
You're not.
I provide a service. People compare what I provide to others and decide if the price charged equates to value received. There is an ample supply, the market is quite saturated. A piece of property in a place where property is getting in short supply is not the same. It's a good investment and you're probably not interested in it because you're worried about the condition students are forced to live in, are you? I'm not saying that you're a bad apple. I just detest this tendency people have to buy things, essential things, things they haven't helped to make and then take advantage of other people's need for them. Don't confuse essential with non-essential. Don't confuse elastic and inelastic. You're doing that and it says you're either not good at thinking or you're only going to think as far as it'll feed your ego.


I am calm. I am not standing. I am not telling others to live. I am telling you you're bad at reading comprehension and there's not one thing you've written that has amounted to more than:

- other people do it too so it's okay
- other people do worse things so what i'm doing is okay
- it's legal so it's okay.

I don't care where you shop or what kind of clothing you wear, in fact, I can't think of anything less interesting at this point in time. I don't have an opinion about your family and wish you'd keep them out of this.

Edit


unless you're buying a property you don't need.


So, it shows you do buy more than you need. Did you really need that explained?


No that is not the logic being used.
Never mind pip, you're either too dumb to figure this out or just too unwilling.
Have a nice day.

So what I provide a service too. Fair market value.

and my desire to buy a flat is to provide for my family- not motivated by greed so they are involved.

yes I am too stupid.

and you are clearly effed up. like the others said a "communist" good luck with that.

ok, i am a greedy bad evil terrible person because i want to buy a flat to rent out for 2000 pln per month to a bunch of students.

tell me again- do you work for free? fair market value. no extra or do you give away your extra earnings too?

you just make enough money and all extra you give away?

we earn our money for the future of our kids. this is a bad thing.

ok, now I get it.

It is bad to want more out of life. terrible horrible evil.

Well said. Neo-liberal economics and its parasitic followers(and their wives) are what created all this sh1t to begin with
thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/the-crisis-of-neoliberalism-and-gerard-dumenil/

pip why do you keep writing the same arguments that I have already dealt with?
If you simply wrote that you're investing in property for your children to live in then I'd have acquiesced by now.

Services and inelastic necessities aren't comparable don't waste your time with such comparisons because they're inaccurate.
Making more money through your own efforts is commendable until you drift into the area of exploitation, why pretend I've written otherwise? Imo, buying residential property which you don't need in a place where there is shortage of it, is exploitation. I'm open to changing my mind but you've got to actually come up with something of substance for me to do that.

That being stated, I shouldn't have called you dumb, I'm sorry. I simply got frustrated at your rantings. I'm sorry I wrote "your god damn family" I could have asked you to simply leave your family out of it as I never mentioned them in the first place- although I'm sure they're lovely.

BTW
True communism would see a system in which the need for government becomes redundant, so true communism has yet to make an appearance as a ruling system of any country. Don't write it like it's a bad thing, it's a great thing as long as there are people honest enough to see it through.

Ok, Foreigner4, tell me- in your ideal world with no landlords - where do you accommodate people who can't afford or don't want to buy a property? Should they live in tents and trailers?

Or, since you are saying that renting is ok (as long as you are not exploiting anyone, which is pretty much what I wrote), why are you assuming that Pip is going to exploit anyone? If she offers market conditions for market price there is no exploitation. Not everyone has to live in location where property is scarce.

Did he mention "his" ideal world and one "without" landlords?

He implied it. If you hate something and think it is bad, it does not exist in your ideal world. He is very passionate about his ideas and I thought he thought them through, so I was just wondering what solution he proposes.

Thank you.
I already wrote her that I wouldn't respond to her as she's not really thinking. In this case she isn't taking into account that I haven't spoken out in the least against those who actually CONSTRUCT homes for people to live in. But that didn't stop her from imagining that argument on my behalf, did it?

Sure... And there is always plenty of those 'constructed' appartments... This argument is really a sign of deep thinking. I'm also not going to respond to you anymore. As we say sometimes... Z koniem nie bede sie kopac.

oh so the way you see it is that because we want to buy in Powisle where the market is not saturated and there is almost a guarantee of a tenant because of the uni- it is worse than lets say buying a flat in Wola where there is a lesser chance to find a tenant.

So your not opposed to making money- just too much money according to your standards.

The way I see it is that if we are going to invest our money in an income property we want a guarantee of a tenant. We want to buy in an area that is not saturated with new construction.

Call it what you want --I just think it makes good sense.

And yes- the idea is to buy this so that my kids will have something in the future.

I don't think that striving for better or wanting financial security is a flaw. I guess I must be stupid.

No, Pip, you are not stupid. Some other people here have daft ideas. Good luck with your investment, but be careful, this is not easy market.

Is there a shortage of residential property?

[quote=Foreigner4] Imo, buying residential property which you don't need in a place where there is shortage of it, is exploitation.

As you said, in your opinion. That doesn't make you right, and after reading your osts on this thread, i have to say that I think you're out to lunch.

Having said that, I'll return to the original topic. I haven't seen a drop in property prices in the Old Town in Gdansk in the five years I've lived here. Some apartments farther out have seen a little drop but that's not across the board.

What have I written which is untrue?


No.

No, just so deeply involved in the racket that you can't see the forest because of the trees.


I would agree with this statement. It may be the norm but that doesn't make it right.

sorry, but I was raised to get an education, work hard, save money and enjoy life. I don't understand how buying a 25m2 flat in Powisle to use as an income property is a bad thing. Like I said, you would be hard pressed to find many Poles that agree with your sentiments including those that lived through the 80s. Do you know the expression "teraz k*rwa my"? This is what Poland is experiencing at the moment. It is easy for those raised in a foreign country to sit in judgement of how those should live their lives and spend their money particularly when they haven't lived through communism/socialism. It is now Polands turn and this is what they want. "deeply involved in the racket"? preach that to Poles and let's see what they think.

Rentals of any kind is someone with "more than they need" lending it for money to someone who can't or doesn't want to buy the thing, i.e. cars, tools, mortgages, computers etc...

So are the majority of students supposed to buy an apartment for the 3 to 5 years they study because Mr. Foreigner4 thinks it greedy to let out an accommodation?

I'm just trying to get my head around this view, there are fundamental flaws in capitalism that most of the stuff is owned by so few people, then we're on the argument of how much is enough, what is "living comfortably" this will differ, so I am left with the impression that people like to judge others.

I don't get it either and I think your impression is spot on.

Its a communist way of thinking, hippies. Nothing wrong with dreaming, but it simply doesn't work. I can't believe there is anyone left on the planet who thinks like that anymore after the terrible damage it did.

Capitalism has many faults with inequality and instability, but we haven't got any choice.

Is the influx of people into cities (eg Wrocław) so large that so many flats have been built and seem to be occupied?

I've been touring quite new estates around this city over the past few days. Locals will not be surprised when I report that I see block after block that seem to be fairly new, already occupied. Street after street after street, or estate after estate after estate, all of which must have been green fields just a couple of years ago. Three-storey blocks, two-storey blocks, hundreds of homes here, hundreds there, within short distances. Drive across a main road, you come to another massive estate of what looks like homes that are less than a couple of years old.

Almost all appear to be occupied, either a tenant or owner.

It seems amazing that so many, and I do mean SO many flats have all found buyers or tenants. You just lose count, it just seems a sea of flats.

Where has the money come from to buy? High multiple mortgages? Family? Overseas money (Poles abroad buying)? Everyone in fabulous well paid jobs in Wroclaw - so many new jobs and good salaries that make affordable the flats at about GBP60K or 300K PLN a time for a 2-room?

So many people moving from rural Poland to cities that these flats have been filled?

I can get a 1 bed flat (ie 2 room flat) in many parts of Essex or Kent (UK) for not much more than that price, where the salaries are double or quadruple. It just does not make sense.

Sure there's big computer firms here in Wroclaw, LG, etc etc - but still...? They're not paying Essex salaries to most people.

Having had a chat with the new build buyers in Wroclaw, most seem to have negotiated 5% off, some 10%, a few got more than that off the price. That is still a lot of money for a flat considering the wages.

Frankly am amazed - amazed at the prices - amazed that so many new flats (thousands and thousands) all found occupants here or even landlords considering the quite low yield.

Who decides what is fair market value? 2000PLN for 25m2 sounds excessive to me. Are students in Poland richer than here in the UK because there's no student I know that could afford paying the UK equivalent of 2000PLN a month to rent a bachelor pad for themself.

simple. That is the going rate for a bachelor apartment in the Powisle area in Warsaw. It is next to the university--basically one of the "student ghetto's" and trendier neighbourhoods of Warsaw. Space is limited for new construction- there are a few new builds and it is next to the Copernicus centre but most of the places are either pre war or built in the 60s or 70s. We are looking at a pre war building.

And they probably wouldn't be renting it themselves. I would buy new furniture to set it up like a dorm room for two people.

I have an acquaintance who bought an apartment in Powisle in a post war low rise building. She didn't fix it up, she didn't even remove any of the old furniture from the previous owner- basically it is in a poor state and she rents it out to two girls who go to Uni. She has been charging about 2000 pln. When she put an add up to rent she got 22 requests.

I have standards, I am going to completely gut what we buy and renovate the entire place and buy all new furniture.