EU tribunal overrules Polish name contest in Lithuania

One tiny difference: Lithuania had never agreed that the areas were part of Poland; Poland however agreed that those areas were Lithuanian territory, and then the very next day invaded those same areas. And then when Lithuania refused to accept the illegal occupation of what Poland had said was part of Lithuania, Poland threatened to invade the rest of Lithuania.

But then Poland made a speciality of breaking her word: in just 20 years she broken treaties with Lithuania (twice), Czechoslovakia (three times) and Ukraine (which she sold to the Soviets)!

Just to get few facts straight about Lithuanian minority in Poland, a village of Puńsk may serve as a good example.


From "Urząd Gminy Puńsk",

lt.ugpunsk.pl
ugpunsk.pl

As you can see, the web page of Puńsk municipality office, is provided in two languages: Polish and Lithuanian. The third, English version, is just a skeleton not even worthy to visit.

Somehow these past weeks one interesting website punsk.com mysteriously vanished from internet. But if you care to get its latest cached version from Google you will find there a lot of interesting information.

Lithuanian only web page about Puńsk, with Polish domain, is available here: punskas.pl

I don't think Lithuania had agreed on Warszawa or Kraków belonging to Poland, yet there they were. If Lithuania considered Wileńszczyzna their territory, then surely they would have defended it against Soviet invaders?

Fact of the matter is, Lithuania was effectively defended by Poland against Soviets and grabbed Polish territory in the process. Lithuanians weren't willing to give it back, so Poland used a trick to recapture their territory and minimize losses. Deal with it, calling it an "inconvenient bit of history" shows your strong antipathies, not your "objectivity".

To exactly which century you want to go back? If you want to go back before WWII, then Silesia was German (as it is and was).

By which right you claim in this case White Ruthenia, which was in fact a Polish colony?
By which right you claim Breslau, which was Czech and German for a big part of its existence?

Bingo.

Meanwhile, Lithuania subsidises Polish language textbooks.

All this "EVIL POLES" or "EVIL LITHUANIANS" is just one sided nonsense - both sides are as bad as each other.

Lithuania is a democratic country, member of the EU. The government was elected in democratic elections by democratic means.
Where does the "nazi" thing comes in?
And why in your warped mentality the Silesian regionalists are nazis and the Lithuanian government as well?

It is irrelevant how one comes into a position of power.
Hitler was elected in democratic elections.
Then he got rid of democracy.

Let make it simple.
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Kingdom of Poland about 400 years in union and in 1791 joined together as the one country. (lasted for another till 1795 - killed by Russia and Prussia).

To make you understand - is not as if you can see analogously Poles =English, Lithuanians = Scots.
For once Lithuanians weren't homogeneous people, they were mix of what is today called Belorussians, Poles and Lituanians and others.
Two, the name Pole in the Commonwealth had double meaning - Poles as population of the Crown (Kingdom of Poland) =English, and Pole as in citizen of Commonwealth = British.

After partitions which confused and destroyed much on said territories remained three groups, confused =Belorussians, addled in the head =Lituanians, and fused= Poles.
Ask away, it is simplified explanation.

According to the treaty of Suwalki they did agree to that.


It had already been invaded and occupied for two decades by Polish troops, they were in no position to defend it when the Polish troops ran to Romania, sorry, I mean, retreaded to the Romanian bridgehead.


Exactly how many days in September 1939 did you defend it? More or fewer than seven?


Inconvenient = true? Sounds like it.

Not correct Silesians were there when Polish Kingdom were created/born. Their language (according to linguists) are as close to Polish as it can be. They are branch of the same tree.

As for today, for Silesians there were always three options : become ethnic minority like Sorbs(in Germany), go back to their roots and become Poles (and Silesians with their traditions, customs and lingo), or become Germans.

Grandfathers of those Slilesians already choose, with theirs life's and blood, they choose Poland.
Why now some of them are going back on their sacrifice, because Poland had been disappointing? Hell it was disappointing for everybody in Poland, but it wasn't Poland only Soviets.

Nowadays we have PRL-bis, but it is not fault of Poles but of the all people who voted (or not) also Silesians.
Time to build together a real Poland, not muddle about like pussies.


How long lasted independent Lithuania without independent Poland ?


Ah dry up ! You should go to Lithuania you are addled in the head like them,

No, they are not!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesians

Silesians have developed as a precious mix of Poles, Germans and Bohemians/Czechs...it is not a mono-culture, never has been.

Dude, why are you changing subject to 1939. I was clearly talking about the 1920 war.
Let me remind you about the events of the 1918-1920 events.
November 1918 - Germany signs capitulation to the Entente. Nations of Germany- and Austria- occupied territories are given green light to create their own state entities. Wilno is occupied by a newly formed Belarus (not Lithuania!). Let's assume at this point it should be Lithuanian - why didn't Lithuanians fight for it?

December 1918 - Soviets launch offensive on Belarus and capture Wilno. Lithuanian population of Wilno and surroundings is evacuated to Lithuania, Lithuania did not bother trying to fend off Soviets from that territory

January 1919 - Poles in Wilno revolt against Soviets, after 4 days the rebellion is defeated
April 1919 - Poland launches an offensive against Soviets, captures Wilno. What did Lithuania do to regain "their" Wilno from Polish hands? Nothing.
June 1920 - Soviets launch an offensive against Poland, Polish troops retreat en masse.
August 1920 - Soviet troops are annihilated in Battle of Warsaw. Retreating from Wilno, they hand it over to Lithuania, which now happily captures the territory as it's basically a free item for them at that point.

September 1920 - Polish government tries to convince Lithuanian government hand Wilno over to our hands or let Wilno's population decide which country they want to belong to. Lithuania disagrees to both propositions

October 1920 - Polish troops enter Wilno

I don't know how one can possible paint the Polish government as villains at that time. If Wilno was rightfully Lithuanian (let's ignore the fact that there we were little to none Lithuanians there), why didn't Lithuania try to capture and defend it, not even once? If Poland lost with Soviets, how long would it take for Lithuania to fall prey to Soviets, too? 1 week? Poland effectively defended Lithuania and in return Lithuania occupied Polish Wilno.

Well:






en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania

Seems like they did try to defend their lands and their capital. It is the same to say why the Polish didn't defend Warsaw in September 1939.


If Soviets didn't enter Poland in 1944, how long would it take it to fall in the arms of the Allies?


The Soviets protected Poland and the Polish brought, instead of gratitude, Solidarnosc and occupied Soviet Warsaw.

Well, for starters, Poland wasn't an independent state after 1945. The fact that you see Solidarność as an act against Soviet empire shows that best.

Second, since Lithuanians captured Polish territory and became allies with Soviets, they effectively put themselves at war with Poland. Poland only reclaimed their territory in October 1920, the local population rejoiced, the matter was over.

No, because on October 7 1920 Poland had agreed that that land belonged to Lithuania, so when they invaded the very next day, they were invading territory which even Poland said belonged to Lithuania. I'm amazed how often you forget that.

The agreement was that Wilno would temporarily be under Lithuanian administration. Well, temporarily. :)
In all seriousness, the truce was signed to catch Lithuanians off guard. A machiavellian scheme, that's all there is to it. However, it's the Lithuanians that allied themselves with Bolsheviks, there'd be no incident over Wilno had they not done that.

I'm talking about prevailing ethnicity, that there was some exchange of people with neighbours is clear. To be honest all German are mix with other people, with Avarians, Slaves and others...

As for uppers Silesians they had always close ties with Poland, well maybe not in the years 1795-1918, but other than that, it is wishful thinking on you part.


sure, belonged to Grand Duchy of Lithuania, in a historical sense, become in 1791 by the popular will of the representative's of both countries the Duchy and Crown merged formally stating that their are thereafter constituting one body - Rzeczpospolita.



And then in 1918 some upstarts jump out of the bushes and declare that their Lithuanians and they from the former territory o the GDoL this and that - hilarious.

As if Gaelic speaking Scots said, we are the only real Scots and we want this and the Edinburgh, and the rest of you either fall in line you Anglicised Scots or go to England. As I said addled in the head, but partition does it to people.

I guess this Poland didn't like and used its usual low-blow tactics.

So you mean that Poland deliberately lied when signing a treaty. Cool, kindly never again complain about Britain and Poland in relation to WWII, even if Britain betrayed Poland (which she did not), it was just a machiavellian scheme, that's all there is to it. And what is OK for Poland is OK for the UK.


And then in 1920 Poland agrees that that land is Lithuania. And the next day Poland invades Lithuania.....

Polish colony - you are ignoramus Belgian ?


by the right of given Prussia what she deserves for the partitions and WWII>


I don't know what you are talking about, an given your accuracy in dicribing facts from Polish history I will not take your word for it. Link please.

It was a Soviet-Lithuanian treaty. Soviets captured Polish territory, gave it to Lithuanians. Soviets lose the war, Poland naturally wants to regain all its territories prior to the war. Lithuania, as an ally to the side that lost the war, should give back the territory. It's that simple. You can't appear on a war theater, capture a territory and claim to be neutral in that war.


Better to lie and minimize bloodshed than to have a full blown war.
And yes, UK betrayed Poland. Article one of the Polish-UK agreement:
"Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power."

Is dropping leaflets over German cities all UK could muster at the time? I don't think so.
France neglected their obligations even further at they were supposed to launch offensive on German territory within two weeks of German aggression on Poland.

They fulfilled only the "offensive" part, and only within their own territory - they said "merde!"

Well as I have thought Harry.



Selected lines of demarcation between Lithuania and Poland, 1919–1939. Light orange line denotes the line drawn by the Suwałki Agreement
And :
Under pressure from the League of Nations, Poland agreed to negotiate
Although neither Vilnius or the surrounding region was explicitly addressed in the agreement, numerous historians have described the agreement as allotting Vilnius to Lithuania.

Well, i think that not sane person would think that Poland will agree on such injustice.....

Polish General Lucjan Żeligowski, a native of the historic lands of Lithuania, was given command of the 1st Lithuanian-Belorussian Infantry Division (comprising mostly Poles from those lands

Żeligowski in proclaiming a Central Lithuania, he honestly believed that he was creating a Lithuania—albeit one that was dominated by Polish rather than Lithuanian culture.



What is interesting - The Lithuanian forces in the region had to garrison Vilnius, whose Polish population (forming the majority) were restless. Polish population supported Żeligowski forces, many of their family members were in his Division, militia forces began orchestration of uprising.

Meaning Lithuanians had to had occupations forces ready to subjugate local population.
Furthermore in said territories election was held and in 1922 Central Lithuania's parliament would vote for their state's incorporation into Poland
Well, Harry does self-determination rings any bells?
If not - up your :)

You mean like the Crossists on KM? Nearest I saw to fascism in Poland until today.

As is traditional, I will now ask you to go into detail about what more British could have done to fulfil her obligations under the Anglo-Polish treaty. And as is equally traditional, you will either completely ignore the question and simply repeat the accusation (quite possibly with a few personal insults thrown in) or say "Britain should done x" with x of course being impossible. Do feel free to tell us how and to where would you have liked British forces to have been sent. Perhaps an amphibious assault on Hamburg by the entire nine war-ready divisions?

By the way, you may wish to tell the families of the crews of the ten British planes (out of 29 planes) killed while bombing German naval targets on 4 September 1939 that those men were dropping leaflets. Oh, and then go tell the families of the 518 men killed when their aircraft carrier was sunk on 17 September 1939 that they were also dropping leaflets.


Indeed it does, pity that both Poland and Lithuania had determined that those people would not get the chance to determine their future and would instead live in Lithuania; well, at least they would until Poland renaged on yet another treaty and invaded yet another neighbour, i.e. the very next day.

Perhaps we could go back to age when Poles were still living in trees and and Roman civilisation was everywhere in Western Europe?
This is of course is satirical, but how far you want to go back to justify demands?

Heh:)

What an argument...in Europe we are ALL quite mixed!

eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Poland is the most yellow on that map = we are the purest race in the world LOL

I never threw personal insults towards you or anybody else here. Stop making **** up. You have clear anti-Polish bias though, seeing how you spin absolutely everything concerning Poland in a negative way.

UK could have done a lot more than they have. First of all, they could have encouranged France to actually fullfil their obligation and launch invasion on Germany. Western Germany was pretty much undefended, Berlin would have been reached in 2 weeks most likely. Then, support France with logistically (food, fuel) and military (send those few divisions they had, concentrate navy on around bigger German ports etc.). You won't tell me these things could not have been done and in retrospective that a lot of people, time and resources wouldn't be saved. The war would be over in 1939, but what happened cannot be undone.

You're quite an optimist. ;)


With Nazi Germany armed to the teeth and an Austrian leader thursty like a vampire? No chance.

Seems like the topic is wandering

Almost all German resources were tied up in Poland. It's a huge distance from western Poland to western Germany, by the time they'd regroup they'd lose a lot of strategic points, German war machine wasn't in full throttle yet in 1939, they wouldn't be able to sustain both fronts then - keep in mind that the Ruhr region (the biggest industrial region) would be instantly in allied hands, they weren't receiving oil and gas from Norway etc. Germany wasn't prepared to fight on both fronts, luckil;y for them, they didn't have to.