Adam Mickiewicz. What is his motherland: Poland or Lithuania?

He did that in a book that is widely considered to be a masterpiece of Polish
language and Mickiewicz was and ardent Polish patriot. I might as well refer to
Lower Silesia as my fatherland (in Polish we say "Ojczyzna" so it's not motherland
but fatherland :-)), because I was born there, but I am still a Pole.


Sure - no probs. As for Mickiewicz - he was born in the lands that are currently
a part of Belarus that were back then a part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania so there
is another nation that could claim him :-) In Wikipedia his name is given in three
languages (Bel. Адам Міцкевіч, Pol. Adam Mickiewicz, Lit. Adomas Mickevièius).


It doesn't matter what it's called in English. In Polish it's ojczyzna (fatherland)
and that's what counts when we talk about a Polish poet ;-)

It's not my business to argue over Mickiewicz but I know that he claimed Lithuania to be his motherland, that's it. If we start talking about which land used to belong to who in the past, Polish history will become even much more complicated.


don't we use English on this forum?

As Torq pointed out, it was a fatherland.
In Polish the word (ojczyzna) did not necessarily mean a country a political entity and the meaning can be as narrow as a region one comes from or even a family farm.

A century or so ago Stefan Zeromski could have said that Malopolska was his "oczyzna" (fatherland). Malopolska was never a separate country, or a nation.

That meaning is obsolete today and now so in today's Polish, in the narrow sense, the word "ojcowizna" (heirdom) would seem more appropriate.

answer above

And he did that in what language?

tell me :-)

He said that, all right. He said that in a beautiful, pure Polish :-)

For me personally it doesn't matter if Lithuania claims him. He was one
of the greatest Polish language poets of all time and ultimately that's
what matters.

You'd be upset too if a foreigner, a Pole, wrote your language's alphabet. And if your neighbor's culture was more attractive.


Too complicated for an American you mean.

How about this one? He wrote it too. Is it Polish or Lithuanian?



I just want to know, that's it.

I found wikipedia to be explaining things pretty well:

The controversy over Mickiewicz's ethnic background largely stems from the fact that in the 19th century the modern concept of nationality based on ethnicity had not yet been fully developed and the term "Lithuania," as used by Mickiewicz himself, had a much broader geographic meaning than it does now. Mickiewicz had been brought up in the culture of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, a multicultural state that had encompassed most of what today are the separate countries of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus and Ukraine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickiewicz

Very nice and diplomatic explanation. I guess the WW3 will be avoided now, lol

I don't give a fvck what his real or imagined nationality was. The fact remains - a man who titled his collection of poems "The Books of the Polish Nation and the Polish Pilgrimage", who called Poland a "Christ among nations" and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth "husband with wife, two souls in one body. And there was never before this such a union of nations. But hereafter there shall be. For that union and marriage of Lithuania and Poland is the symbol of the future union of all Christian peoples in the name of faith and freedom." (yes, freedom, not oppression) definitely had great love for Poland, no matter how you look at it. If Lithuanians want to believe that he was Lithuanian they are free to do so but they can't at the same time pretend that he and other people like him were unhappy about the Commonwealth.

So, he was either a Pole who didn't notice the terrible oppression of Lithuanians, or a Lithuanian who didn't feel oppressed in any way at all.

Good point! We should say them it's all from Tusk Donald. They'll stop.

The Lithuanian emancipation started in late 1860s just after the failure of the last Polish rebellion (January Insurgence) in which 3,5 'languages' fought together against Muscovy. They were all Lithuanians but spoke 3 or 4 languages: Polish, Lithuanian, White-Ruthenian and few Yiddish. Lithuanian speakers had simply enough. They started to develop his own national identity. They even resigned from Polish alphabet to write his language and borrowed New-Czech one. Polish society was baffled and counterattacked stating it's a treason against common Homeland. Treason breeds treason and new Lithuanian irredenta started to make public happenings bringing before the tribunal of the Lithuanian people the old traitor Jogaila (king Władysław II Jagiełło).

well, this confirming what I've heard from Lithuanians I've met in the states.

I have a question, my friends:
Why does he say that he lost her (his Lithuania, his Fatherland)? And it seems like the only land he misses. If it refers to the loss of independance in the 1700s, then he should have missed Poland too or RP at least, in my opinion (if he considered them his ojczyzna).


I never saw a man to "see and describe in all its marvellous beauty" family farm, "missing it" and who just found about his enourmous love after he lost it ;) I think he meant more than a chicken coop :)

Because he had to emigrate.


Check ojczyzna and ojcowizna.

You are not going to tell me that the last word means a farm or anything similar?!

This word comes from the same stem.


What is your point?

Just that Mickiewicz meant the word "ojczyzna" the way you mean now when you say the motto.

univ.gda.pl/~literat/ksiegi/003.htm

"A w Ojczyźnie naszej, w Polsce wiernej Tobie, nie wolno jest wołać do Ciebie; i starcy nasi, kobiety i dzieci modlą się do Ciebie w skrytości. myślą i łzami. BOŻE Jagiellonów! BOŻE Sobieskich, BOŻE Kościuszków! zlituj się nad Ojczyzną naszą i nad nami."

I don't think so. He identified himself as a Pole; that was his economic status, language and religion.

Some more quotes from "Pan Tadeusz":

„Nie nam to pisać akta, ma Polska pisarzy
Koronnych i Litewskich, tak robili starzy”

„Ilekroć z Prus powracam, chcąc zmyć się z niemczyzny,
Wpadam do Soplicowa, jak w centrum polszczyzny:
Tam się człowiek napije, nadysze Ojczyzny!”

„Marsz tryumfalny: "Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła!"
"Marsz, Dąbrowski, do Polski!" - I wszyscy klasnęli,
I wszyscy "Marsz Dąbrowski" chorem okrzyknęli!
(…)
Aż gdy na Dąbrowskiego starzec oczy zwrócił,
Zakrył rękami, spod rąk łez potok się rzucił:
"Jenerale! - rzekł - ciebie długo Litwa nasza
Czekała... długo, jak my Żydzi Mesyjasza.
Ciebie prorokowali dawno między ludem
Śpiewaki, ciebie niebo obwieściło cudem.
Żyj i wojuj, o, ty nasz!..."
Mówiąc, ciągle szlochał.
Żyd poczciwy Ojczyznę jako Polak kochał!”

So you want to say when someone in Polish is talking about his/her Motherland, he means only Poland? Mickiewich said: "Litwo, Ojczyzno moja..." BB would have said "Niemcy, Ojczyzno moja...", just not in his native language, but it doesn't change his or anyone else Motherland at the very least.


So? It doesn't contradict my statement at all: the Jew loved his country like a Pole loves his. More to support that he didn't mean Poland



Great man, Marek.

Good quote.

There was Poland - consisting of ziemie Korony Polskiej i ziemie litewskie,
similar to the situation today when we have Poland consisting of Pomerania,
Silesia and so on.

My grandparents, both from my mother's and my father's side are Górale Podhalańscy
(from Nowy Targ area) who have their own, very distinct culture, customs and dialect
that they speak, but they would never consider themselves "not-Polish" because of that.

Górale are Polish, just like Kaszubi, Wielkopolanie, Mazowszanie, Litwini, Białorusini
or Ukraińcy. They are all Polish.

The meaning of the words 'Polish' and 'Poland' is much wider than the primitive,
troglodyte, 19th century nationalistic, limited sense that some people on this forum
are trying to promote. They have to give up their nazi-like, primitive, tribal thinking.

As for those Lithuanians who say that they are not Polish - I'd advise them to finally stop
living in denial and embrace their Polishness (in a wider cultural, historical and civilizational
sense).

This is Jankiel, Nathan, the person who "- Miał także sławę dobrego Polaka."

Guess what? I have even MORE quotes:

"Że będzie wojna. Książę wysłał mnie na zwiady
Z rozkazem, żeby byli Litwini gotowi
Dowieść przychodzącemu Napoleonowi,
Że chcą złączyć się znowu z siostrą swą, Koroną,
I żądają, ażeby Polskę przywrócono."

This quote clearly shows that Mickiewicz thinks of Poland as one country made up of two administrative districts: "Korona" and "Litwa". And here's what Poles from Korona were called: Zawsze zwykł za patrona brać Koronijasza

And now a proof that characters in Pan Tadeusz are Poles:

Sędzia's words:"Jestem Polak, dla kraju rad bym coś dokazać,"
About Hrabia:"Poczciwy, dobry Polak; potrzebny nam taki;"
About Soplicowie:""O polska krwi!" (...) "Prawe dziecię Sopliców!"
Others:"Zaczęli z dawnych gniewów ostygać powoli.
Bo szlachta polska, chociaż niezmiernie kłotliwa
I porywcza do bitew, przecież nie jest mściwa."

"Zdrowie Państwu naszemu!" - ze łzami krzyknęli;
Tadeusz krzyknął: "Zdrowie Spółobywateli,
Wolnych, równych, Polaków!""

What Ryków thinks about them:
"Gniewny, że sam nie może dać ognia, bo w tłumie
Moskalów od Polaków rozróżnić nie umie,"

"Oj! wy Lachy! Ojczyzna! ja to wszystko czuję,
Ja Ryków; car tak każe, a ja was żałuję;"

He! Ojczyzna! Ja nie szpieg, a po polsku umiem -
Ojczyzna! Ja to czuję wszystko, ja rozumiem!
Wy Polaki, ja Ruski, teraz się nie bijem,
Jest armistycjum, to my razem jemy, pijem."


It's more complicated than that, I'm afraid. After all, technically all Slavs used to be one people before. The reason why we aren't is because we've stopped identifying with each other. It's the same with us and Lithuanians: the Lithuanians of today are definitely NOT Poles and whatever Mickiewicz and others like him thought 200 years ago doesn't change the situation today.

+


Hm, what about that? Sisters, not some "Ojczyzna" and Poland sounds to be put in a passive mode, if I am correct here ;)



I have never read this book, but it seems to be too pompous and fairy-like, especially the following:





Soap opera? ;) Nevertheless, there is still not definite mentioning from the author about his feelings towards Poland. Even the heros themselves clearly differentiate both lands and call them "sisters" in a shallowly hidden hope :) to grab again Lithuanian lands ;(. You see, Torq even in the 21st century has a big portion of his brain devoted to the feelings described by Adam in characters of some of his heros ;) Once again: "Litwo, Ojczyzna moja..." - the words said by the author himself, not by his heros!

Why then 'Polskę przywrócono' and not 'Polskę i Litwę' or at least 'Rzeczpospolitą Obojga Narodów'? In my opinion it's because for Mickiewicz the word 'Polska' means Lithuania and the Crown together and 'Polacy' means both Lithuanians and 'Koronijasze'. Such as the word 'Britain' and 'British' mean not just the English but the Welsh too. Why else would characters in a story taking place in Lithuania call themselves 'Poles'? It's clear that 'Poland' and 'Poles' had broader meaning in the past.

Besides, like I said before, Mickiewicz's nationality doesn't matter, his love for Poland is clear and can't be denied. It's even better if we think of him as a Lithuanian because it proves that Lithuanians in the past loved Poland.

Here is a helpful quote from Mickiewicz, Books of the Polish Nation and its Pilgrimage:

But it doesn't matter, I am not going to waste my time on mediocrity. If I was a Lithuanian, I would never called him Lithuanian - he's not a bit worth it.

You don't have one bit of idea what you are talking about, do you?

Have you read his works? Which parts would you like to quote as so bad? Go ahead, give us some examples. Or are you relying on UPA anti-Polish propaganda in your illustrious literary criticism?