30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries

that seems the be the main cause with some exceptions.

I always thought that in Poland rates of illegal abortions are shockingly high and my fellow country women are irresponsible but it seems that it's the world-wide phenomenom.

Do in Sweden they consider an abortion as one of the contraceptive method?


well it's illegal for the most and they have to pay lots of money (but still relatively low) for illegal abortion. Don't know about prices in UK.

Actually it's a secretive thing so I don't know how other ppl can tell or get to know that someone had abortion (and stigmatize that person).

if you look at the original post with the map, you would not be saying those thing. how can you form an opinion without knowing the facts? The official data on abortions in Poland (legal) is NOT available due to its illegal nature.


you have to ask Swedish people.


this is not what the article says, that is why many Polish women go abroad, because it is still cheaper then it is in Poland and legal. That is of course for those who can pay.

I don't agree with that stigmatization.

Me neither. So this already makes three people out of..?

;)

Yes, but the ZUS money is in fact a tax-and ZUS funding is not the only source of health spending. The UK health system should not pay for abortions-after all it is nothing more than state sanctioned killing.

These: 'please provide homes, food and education to all those to be aborted children then." are already provided, there are thousands of people out there desperate for adoptions. Therefore killing an unwanted human being is no excuse- and some sluts use it as a form of contraception, to them it is nothing more than a cosmetic procedure.

You don't have be genius to work out that many of these feminists promoting this issue, have had an abortion in the past and feel a sense of guilt for having killed another human being. Therefore they want to spread the sense of guilt onto the rest of society by legalizing abortions , thinking that this will somehow will make their own guilt disappear-well though luck, you killed a human being and know you have to live with it.

There are some assumptions how big this scale is. I've read its something like more than 150 000 each year if my memory don't fail.


A memeber of my closest family was involved in one abortion (when it was still legal). So I'm far of stoning anybody for abortion but still I think its very wrong, especially when the case I know is an example of a case when ppl don't want to take a responsibility for their lifes, certainly not a drama story.

only if it were true. Your speculations are nothing more then just speculations. You seem to blame one group, while the responsibility is shared.


well, maybe the "sluts" are men who make those women pregnant as well. I don't judge people, but according to you it would be good for both sexes to ban the sex altogether then, unless the couple is willing to raise the child.

It is clear from your post that you try to blame everything on women and feminists, but release the men who made those women pregnant from all the responsibility - nice one and not really a real reflexion of the situation.


I really don't know the stats, however from what I understand the responsibility falls onto the pregnant woman, so does the guilt and everything connected with it.

you mean moral or legal responsiblity?
How anybody can get to know that someone had an abortion? Neighbours, friends rather won't unless that person tell them

well, the fact the the woman is the one who has to find a solution. Most of the posters blame the situation on women who are sluts, open their legs etc. Nobody mentions why those women decide to have an abortion. There maybe many reasons: the father is not interested in having a child, the woman is single and has no means to support the child, the woman is married but she decided with her husband to have an abortion and so on. The article does not state WHY those women have an abortion.

From the map one can deduct that the richer the country the less abortions women have, therefore the issue is directly linked to economy and the ability to support rising a child, not the moral state of mind, since as we know, Eastern countries in comparison to the West are more religious. So, it is mostly about the MONEY, not about the morals as (some male members) state here.

Still, doesn't it gnaw away at the conscience of your average Polish woman in the UK that she has done sth completely anathema to her own cultural norms? It is a horrible decision to have to make and she shouldn't be stigmatised but I can't help but feel that she'd be castigated by her own for getting into that position in the first place.

Understanding is required but those numbers go beyond coincidence and imply slackness.

Blunt question Zeti - why?

(Assuming that we are all in broad agreement that e.g. repeated 'abortion as contraception' is irresponsible and morally questionable)

You know, I learned a lot from my debate with that far-right American. Here was me taking an overly legalistic approach to personhood and sentience when some more humanity and a biological approach were required. The bottom line, avoiding the living entity at conception debate, is that it is a person to be and that we can't expedite that process through any fast forwards. Nature takes its own course and we merely guide.

However, the human element is that mothers often suffer and that it can be a complicated matter. That's why I like the approach of the Church of England in granting 3 exceptions to the disallowance of abortion.

However, those stats just make me sad every time I look at them.

because a women who commit abortion is not only deciding about her own body but also about another organism living inside her. And I just believe that no one have right to decide about someone else life. Just that. I know that for a great part of people a fetus is nothing more than bunch of cells, some not fully shaped creature but not for me.

I'm not a person who would protest on streets in pro-life parade or something but I will never say that abortion is ok and I will never put my finger to make it legal in Poland.


I believe that most cases are like that: Mary met John fall in love with him and unluckly get pregnant. John said that he never wanted to marry Mary so they both decided that Mary will have an abortion. Yes everyone who is involved in that dessiosion prosses is morally responsible for that act not only a woman.

Fair enough.


It's not OK for you - so if you don't agree with abortion, don't have one.
But don't you think it is up to other people to decide whether or not it's OK for them? Why deny anyone the option because of what you personally feel?

You mean Russia? I've always thought that Russians are mostly atheists. Not sure about Ukrainians though.
Yes of course in those countries it seems to be the most logical explanation. But as I said the map shows that in rich Sweeden 1 in 5 or even 4 pregnances is aborted. And it's the country with great social.

It needs our protection in most cases, that is true. There is no need for sexual abstinence but just more care.

Teffle, Zeti isn't denying that. It is the case that it is a person to be and unless that foetus came to be there through rape or profound duress then we have a moral duty to protect it.

I thought the way Zeti was talking that she was simply morally against abortion full stop?

It seemed that way to me from her posts throughout the thread.

Maybe I have it wrong.

Because when you believe in some ethic value you don't give other right to have different opinion.
I give you an example:
If you saw an owner who is beating a dog who (for example) missbehave would you give that owner a free will to punish his dog? Some ppl thinks it[s ok to do that, because it's just an animal... so it's not so obvious for everyone it's something wrong. So you see if you believe in some ethical value you don't agree with other peoples' acts and you can't just say: oh it's ok if he has different views than mine.

I know that world is what it is and I have no influencial power to change it. I know also that life can be really complicated and there are various reason for abortion. So I accept it the way it is. But if I was supporting a pro-choice movement I would support in fact abortion itself (so I would put a finger into legalisation something which I thing is wrong...) Isn't that obvious?


Well I am. I was never supproting abortion. Where have I written something else, Seanus?

She is morally against abortion but I don't know if she gives much weight to the 3 exceptions recognised by Polish Law also, I believe (NOT the RCC). I can't remember what she said on the matter.

I was saying that polish law accept that 3 cases. And especially when someone life is endanger (mother in that case) I of course don't deny anyone the right for abortion as it the lesser evil I guess. The problem is that some ethical problems are not easy to solve and the we can't always use here stiff rules. But I would have a problem in case of rape. It's not the babies fault that its father is a raper. Probably I would give such baby to adoption in such case.

So I support Zeti's position then, Teffle. It is for the courts to get round the notion of personhood and philosophers to get their heads around sentience but we need to nurture that foetus until it becomes a baby. Zygote-embryo-foetus-conception. The 3 exceptions ensure a degree of flexibility that is needed. The first breath notion of the American system disrespects this process til conception.

Depends on exactly what you mean by 'beating' but it's a bad example because there are laws to protect against the ill treatment of animals in all civilised countries. It is illegal.

Abortion is not illegal in many countries.


Well, it's a matter of perspective - I wouldn't see it like that.

Your Ad hominem attacks merely serve as a distraction from the real argument. Like I said you are incapable of refuting the argument that there is an alternative to abortion, and that is adoption.

Furthermore at no stage did I absolve males from the blame, they are equally guilty in this respect. And yes they are sluts, but than again it's not as if a male can get pregnant, it is the female that has the final say.


Fact is that it is only too true, and i suspect you know that very well or are really naive.

Recognising the right of the woman to choose is all grand in theory but there are some things that are harder to leave to trust in reality. Abortion is viewed so cheaply and, like it or not, it is killing sth which has been created. Mistakes happen and rape is never meant to be so there is this need for flexibility. I could never be a member of the far right on this issue, far from it, but the notion that abortion would just be driven underground is a sign of human weakness. How much respect do they have for themselves if they kill that which is a person to be?

and in Poland (and some civilized countries either) abortion is illegal (excluding the 3 cases)...
Actually I don't understand what you mean. I gave you an example how the moral values change in the other point of view but you (and law) don't give everyone who has different view free will to follow their moral values freely.

Law is social consensus, or aims to be at any rate. Surely society doesn't want the killing of foetuses!? However, the mother may be in no position to support that child but that's the social/financial aspect. It doesn't really justify killing.

Now, it isn't murder as many claim as the foetus or embryo is not yet a person so fails to meet the test of personhood. However, it is killing of sth with a distinctive DNA pattern and, as I keep saying, a person to be.

Everyone who supports legalisation of abortion bears the burden of all abortion which will be committed in result of such law. I don't see other perspective.


in many but not in all. But it's not the case. 60 years ago if you had told some farmer that about animal laws he would have ridiculed you! Ethic values changes during generations. And those values are respected now which had more supporters. Maybe within 100 years people will regognize abortion as something perfectly ethical who knows? But maybe contrary? Abortion would be consider as a barbarian practise...

This the exception. Poland, Ireland, Spain & Malta are the only countries in Europe - is everyone else simply wrong?


You do have free will not to follow a path or decision that you don't believe in - just don't have an abortion.

Surely there are other examples of this - e.g. legally available options that you personally object to? In these cases too, you simply chose not to avail of the product or service.

Perhaps it's because they are careless btches, what is wrong with adoption, surely it is preferable to abortion, is it not?

who said that every citizens of "modern europe" accept abortion? it can be legal, so what? What's your point? Have you understand mine?


As I said I won't protest or in any active way involve in pro-life movement but also I won't put a finger in supporting pro-choice movement because it would be like me standing against my own moral values! I have also free will to say that I don't like it that other have abortion and I don't think it's ok. Is it so hard to understand my point? You gave me choice so I chose to critisize.