30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries

You are confusing morality with legality, Teffle. It is the morality of the legislators Vs the morality of those that have to live with the issue of abortion. Legality is simply that one group of people took a stand and made it law. Please look above as I outlined it there.

I agree with Zeti here, Teffle. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it moral and she gave a perfect example. Cutting off sb's head or hand is repulsive to us and draconian but somehow accepted as legal in some Arabic countries.

Convex, should those couples have been stupid enough to have a child in the first place if they didn't think it through? Raising a child can be hell for some (heaven too) but they can't take the killing option to bail themselves out.

Yes they do. My dad was in Dubai and said they do.



Polish source:

I'm not confusing it. But I take the point, maybe referendum is therefore the only way to go.

Comparisons with sharia law/islamic fundamentalism is pointless and irrelevant - as I would largely denounce the legal and social aspects of this kind of life as utterly unenlightened, viciously paternalistic, simplistically barbaric etc. This has nothing to do with my "western" perspective, they are largely a highly superstitious people with little education and a medieval mindset.

OK I'm done with this abortion thing anyway and I should never have started. I'll have to agree to disagree with Zeti & Seanus.

My position is fairly simple - I am pro-choice but that doesn't mean I embrace abortion as a casual emotion-free procedure or without restrictions. It's a far from ideal solution but a sometimes necessary one and it should be available.

I believe opposition to abortion is simply denying others a choice which is none of their business, and yes, they are imposing their own morals on others. As I've said before if you are against abortion, don't have one.

Pro-choice, both sides have an option on what to do or what not to do.

I worked in Dubai and I know they don't. It's an option for the courts, but it hasn't been practiced for a long long time. Your sources say nothing about Dubai or the UAE. Iran uses it primarily in tribal areas, and the Saudis are crazy.

So if you are against killing then don't do it but if you want it, do it? Is that what you are saying, Teffle? Is abortion killing a child to be or not?

just for you.


in your culture.


The abortion disscussion always ends like this. I also don't like to take part in such discussions. And note that I'm kind of mild pro-lifer ;)


Within 500 years human race will be saying that XXI century was medival ;)


Who said we are free in anything? We must adjust to values which are imposed to us by others.


I was just trying to explain you that imposing moral values which you strongly believe in is something natural and understable. You also impose your values when you despise sharia laws. The point of view depends on point of sitting.

they did not have an option because abortion in Poland is illegal. Had they option to abort, they would not have been killed, whether they wanted to abort or they were forced by their partners.

How are those death different from honour killings, which is just a substitute for domestic violence really? In both cases women are killed because THEY are women.

Comparisons are not futile or irrelevant at all, Teffle. Poland, Spain, Malta (I presume) and Ireland are predominantely Catholic countries. Religion shapes the law there in such areas as abortion just as the Koran/Quran takes a harsh stand against theft.

I don't like labels but I see the need to protect the child to be and afford them just that.

Many countries are lighter on religion and this often reflects in their laws.

only on paper. there is whole podziemie aborcyjne podobno...


In the text is clearly written that the guy killed her because she didn't want to agree for abortion

Well if by 'killing' you mean abortion and if by abortion you mean with certain restrictions (e.g. number of weeks) then yes.


C'mon - in everyone elses culture.
You need to make comparions with equivalent cultures. Going by your example you could say the same thing about cannibalism or anything else.


Maybe, but we are dealing with now which is the point.


But as I said, big difference - who accepts sharia law as a good idea outside of that culture? See cannibalism.


Indeed and I have a big problem with that too but that's another story.

Right that's definitely all I'm saying on it ; )

Yeah, that's my point. You impose your western values to other cultures.


Teffe I deliberately use such examples to make you see that whole culture we are living, whole moral rules we strongly believe in were imposed at some stage to us. We did not choose to follow them (whatever we believe they are right or not) and you have no right to valiolate them. So why you are so suprised that people who believe that others do something really wrong (abortion) fights to impose others their own rules?

So if I thing something is wrong I also condemn (to some extent... as I said before I would not stone anyone for that) what others do. What's so hard to understand? If you believe in somethin you probably also try to impose others your believes.

oh geez... who started that topic again...... :/


you know it is... if something is illegal, people will find a way around it...
and it will not change, women will get abortions anyway...

Key Facts
In 2008, for women residents in England and Wales:

Non-residents:
in 2008, there were 6,862abortions for non-residents carried out in hospitals and clinics in England and Wales (7,099 in 2007)

The total number of abortions was 195,296, compared with 198,499 in 2007, a fall of 1.6%


No its not, its ease of access to abortion, people lived on far less many years ago and managed, people just have a more "disposable" attitude to pregnancy these days - here today, gone tomorrow...


Thats because its legal - but dont think for one moment its only the indiginous people that are taking full advantage of the services, a friend of mine worked at a hospital as a receptionist in one such department and she was shocked at the amount of asian women that abort (generally when they find out its another girl!) at the latest stage possible...


Not really, I find it hard to understand how they get an abortion here if they dont live here, they need a GP to refer them to a hospital..so in order to do that they need to register with GP and to do that they need to have an address...Its not a simple "walk in say hi I need an abortion" - I think the numbers are exaggerated, grossly.


True.

For sure many Polki abort to avoid being stigmatized for raising a mixed child but some keep these mixed children I saw some of them in Greece,the mothers look elend.

I have ascertained your position, Teffle, so that's fine.

We can reach a compromise and say that it's complicated and can agree that abortion on the scale of the title is shocking.

How can you say such things? It's not even funny...

Here you have few very beautiful women of mixed blood which only can dream of (because you will never be able to pick up such hot chics)

Omena Mensah



Patrycja Kazadi

I wouldn't even approach them.Yesterday in Kiev there was a mixed one next to a Blondynka and I felt appalled having to talk to her although she was quite friendly.I guess the same reaction happens when a Black approaches a white girl it is like a warn from the genes.

It is also no secret that mothers of mixed children look like ho's in white men's eyes.They are so ridiculed that whites do not take them seriously anymore and think of them as easy sluts.

I am sure if you ask polish men they will tell you the same.

What is moral and what is legal are two different things. We get our morals from religion we don't get our morals from the courts or through legislation. If you think abortion is immoral, don't get an abortion. As for everyone else if they think they need an abortion they should have access to medical facilities. If they don't, the abortion goes underground or they have to go to another country. Poland is a very irresponsible country.

Good article, required reading for Zetigrek, Seanus, all you right wing wackos: guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

Omenaa.... myaaam!

Because it is immoral to use state sanctioned killing in Poland, that is why. I have no problems with women, how could I have problems with people from that wonderful sex.

There is an alternative to killing you know, have you ever heard of Okienko zycia?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_hatch

But of course silly me, why use one of these when killing is oh sooo much more preferable!

Okno zycia sounds good in theory, in reality, it's a bunch of children that no one wants!

Not the point. If a woman wants an abortion she should have access to medical care.

What does the Bible say about abortion?

Hey, I can agree with you on that.


Nada....

please stop being patronizing.
Women should have an access to abortion in their own country without feeling stigmatized.

Only 30-40 thousand?! Woooh!
Norway have/had statistics about 30 thousand abortions every year...

Is it really that few?
Norway got 4,5 million people while Poland has 40 million?!

I am overoyed to hear that so little percentage are doing it "fuew"

For


data update:



every year not total.

One thing doesn't fit here. In one part of the intervirw there is about women from little towns who are ashamed of their neighbours or priest (sic!) to get known about abortion, while in the next indention the same doctor says:


for those who doesn't know polish it's an interview with a polish doctor working in german clinic where many Poles want to have abortion. Translation of the quote I've just posted: " they are (*his patients) of the age group between 15 to 48. Educted, usually well-situated (*wealthy), awsome. Usually they come from: Warsaw, Poznan, Wroclaw, but also from Lublin, Rzeszów, Przemysł, not so little from Cracow, Częstochowa and even Wadowice (*popes town). They represent every walk of life. Among them there are: busineswomen, media reporters, writers, academic workers, artists, clerks - also those from governent ministries. There are also academic student, rarely school students. They already have children, but at this time it doesn't "suits" them to have a baby because of business, work, college.

I imagine that such people don't give a sh about what neigbour will sa (as in the big cities people are quite anonimus) and the priest thing... Weird interview...

No, people should take responsibility for their actions and face the consequences. There is no such thing as a relativist blameless society, the sooner people get that into their heads the better society will be.


You forgot, Thy shall not Kill!

Bloody hell - judge, jury & executioner eh?

Teffle one more question to you (without goind too much into discussion). What do you think about my post #117

The ongoing battle between pro & anti is often bitter.

In what is a grotesque sick irony, so-called "pro lifers" have even killed "abortionist" doctors. I'm sure some of the pro-choicers have plenty to be ashamed of in their protests too.

There is plenty of blatantly untrue propoganda from both sides. Having said that, if what the doctor states is accurate about being pregnant not suiting them -well, what can I say? A very cold, casual attitude to a procedure that should not be taken lightly. I do find the attitude irresponsible and a bit repulsive.