Crow, were you on drugs when you wrote this?
When was not he ?
Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom?
When was not he ?
Crow, were you on drugs when you wrote this?
Slivovice and slavic spirituality.
I'll let him answer that, rock :)
Crow, there was a shooting video I posted earlier. At least I think it was gun shots in Smolensk. There are many copies available on Youtube.
Crow, there was a shooting video I posted earlier. At least I think it was gun shots in Smolensk. There are many copies available on Youtube.
They sound distinctly like gun shots,
If there were security people on the plane...and they carried guns they would also have ammo for them....the sound of shots could be the ammo cooking off in the fire , or tyres exploding , oxygen bottles....any number of things...possibly even Russian soldiers warning people off the crash site....nothing sinister i suspect....
You see an interview conducted a few hours after the accident
I am referring to the boy's video!!!! Are you crazy or stupid? You don't even know what you're talkng about... Overdue for psychiatrist consult. Why don't you enlarge and pause closeup of boy's video on his camera.
Wildrover, Olga put forward the most likely scenario, a hypothesis that I'd go with.
I am referring to the boy's video!!!!
Who is this boy?
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Eyewitness who shot video of plane as it was going down. Look at it. Boy took video and there is barely any fog. Video is on this thread few posts back. Pause and enlarge.
As it was going down? I didn't see that one.
Eyewitness who shot video of plane as it was going down.
Maybe it was ET.
Wildrover, Olga put forward the most likely scenario, a hypothesis that I'd go with.
I would not hitch my wagon to that cart.
It seems to be the most probable. Russians were quickly on the scene and kept people at bay. What issue do you take with it, f stop?
I am referring to the boy's video!
Nice video of flying plane in bright sky with no fog. Boys talking that they seen a crash. No any sign of crash on their video. Nobody told that this is Polish plane on the boy's video.
Olga have I got you idea - there was no crash at all ?
Please, send requiest to the Polish prosecutors - let them find the boys and their camera. Otherwise some people will discuss this moment forever -it is dangerous for their mental health.
What issue do you take with it,
That Russians kept the protocol.In no case you bring other nations representatives for investigation because it is called espionage.There is military airport.
In an accident of that magnitude, you keep things as open as possible, southern. Military airport or not, they were given clearance to land there and thus Polish authorities have a direct interest in their landing.
Imagine bringing representatives and them setting false evidence etc in the scene.Who knows what orders they may take?Times are sly.
Military airport or not, they were given clearance to land there and thus Polish authorities have a direct interest in their landing.
This military base was closed last year. And is it not a case of mutual investigation - together with Polish authorities? Or I miss something?
Was closed or not, Tusk flew there as did Polish journalists. Not only Polish but Russians too. So, it was operational and valid to land at.
It is mutual, yes, but the Polish interest factor was very much there.
It is mutual, yes, but the Polish interest factor was very much there.
Military airport or not, they were given clearance to land there and thus Polish authorities have a direct interest in their landing.
They were told to divert. The only other thing the tower could have done was close the airport, and there are two theories why they didn't: one was they did not meet the criteria, like there was no obstructions on the runway, and two, it would be greatly misrepresented by Poles, with the political history, and they let Tusk land, and not the President.
It is mutual, yes, but the Polish interest factor was very much there.
Yes, indeed. Who in Russia disputed it?
Well, it's all just speculation
I am referring to the boy's video!!!!
The boys' video shows a plane against the sky but it doesn't show the land as seen from the plane.
What plane was it?
When was the video taken?
If the Polish plane hit the tree tops why are those tree tops so much below the plane?
The plane appears to be flying OK.
The boys said they were going to school when this happened? At almost 11am? Is that when the classes start in Smolensk?
So back to the main question of this thread:
Yes, foul play is possible and very much so. And if it indeed was someone's job then I would look for culprits as much Eastwards as Westwards. Heck, after nearly 70 years, the British still haven't revealed all documents pertaining to Sikorski's death but you are worried about a few days which are reasonably needed to stitch facts together in this crash?
Anyway, that clip alone does not provide a proof of anything, no matter how many insults you throw at those who disagree with you.
nogardthegreat - | 22
15 Apr 2010 / #443
15 pages is a wee bit much to digest so if this has been offered, please accept my apologies for repeating something.
Ms. Szczypinska, who gave up her seat on the ill-fated flight just hours before it took off, said she had been informed by Polish journalists at the crash site that Russian authorities had demanded that witnesses who had been waiting to greet the dignitaries hand over their cameras, cell phones and memory cards.
"I have flown many times on that plane and I knew the pilots, and I am convinced that it wasn't a pilot's mistake that led to this tragedy," she said in an interview on Thursday. "It is disturbing the way the Russian side has been communicating, issuing statements and how they had their version of events from the beginning. It is very strange, and we expect answers."
Cite: nytimes.com/2010/04/16/world/europe/16poland.html
Ms. Szczypinska, who gave up her seat on the ill-fated flight just hours before it took off, said she had been informed by Polish journalists at the crash site that Russian authorities had demanded that witnesses who had been waiting to greet the dignitaries hand over their cameras, cell phones and memory cards.
"I have flown many times on that plane and I knew the pilots, and I am convinced that it wasn't a pilot's mistake that led to this tragedy," she said in an interview on Thursday. "It is disturbing the way the Russian side has been communicating, issuing statements and how they had their version of events from the beginning. It is very strange, and we expect answers."
Cite: nytimes.com/2010/04/16/world/europe/16poland.html
Ms. Szczypinska, who gave up her seat on the ill-fated flight just hours before it took off, said she had been informed by Polish journalists at the crash site that Russian authorities had demanded that witnesses who had been waiting to greet the dignitaries hand over their cameras, cell phones and memory cards.
that might actually be pretty wise in the plane crash investigation.
Let wait and see what Polish Polices or FBI have to say. They found black box and tape will tell us more.
I think Pilots were have disagreement whether to land or not.
I feel President shouldn't tell Pilots what to do.
I think Pilots were have disagreement whether to land or not.
I feel President shouldn't tell Pilots what to do.
In order for a hypothesis to stand the test of scrutiny, one must consider who had the means, motive, and opportunity, and the following questions must be satisfied:
1) Who?
--Putin & Tusk
2) What?
--Assassination by plane crash
3) When?
--Known
4) Where?
--Smolensk airport
5) Why? (The "why" also answers the "who." Strong motive usually points to perpetrator.)
Power & revenge--usually the strongest motivators in political assassinations. Here is who would benefit most and why:
"Tusk-A friend to Russia?"
"Polish Plane Crash Boost PM Tusk" (Motive: power)
"Polish premier's ill-fated trip shrouded in acrimony" (Acrimony over how to deal with Russia. Tusk=pro-Russia, Kaczynski not. Motive: power & revenge. Also, very convenient that Tusk had been "invited" several days earlier alone.)
"Poland PM Tusk Considers Running for President" (Motive: power)
"Poland's air crash also killed a swathe of the country's elite" (Consider their accomplishments and ask, "Did they help or hinder Russia?" Motive: revenge)
"Scent of shale gas hangs over Katyn" (Motive: Money & power)
"Poles wary of Nord Stream pact" (Note pipeline originally planned directly from Russia to Germany)
"Nord Stream Ensures Unrestricted Access to Polish Ports" (March 5, 2010-route change press release. Now possible from Russia to Poland. Motive: power...keeping Poland "in line" with gas supply or else cut off like in Ukraine. Remember Kaczynski was pro-West and Tusk much more pro-Russia).
"Analysis: Polish euro dream still elusive after crash" (It's better for Russia if Poland does not go Euro-keeps Poland more isolated from West. Easier to manipulate and strong-arm Poland.)
" The death of Poland's president carries a terrible echo of his country's past" (Illustrates how much of a thorn in the side of Putin Kaczynski really was.)
"Redzikowo Missile Defense Shield" (More pain-in-the-ass for Russia, part of revenge motive)
"Polish President Kaczynski was nationalist, pro-U.S" (Motive: more revenge)
"Diplomats mull practical impact of Polish air disaster" (Reasons for elimination of Kaczynski and key party players who were pain-in-the asses for both Putin & Tusk)
And, last but not least-
"Throughout history, Russian leaders have sought to suppress dissent by driving critics into exile - or worse"
6) How?
Plane was overhauled just several months earlier in Russia. Opportunity for sabotage. (This is both the "means" and opportunity")
Ex-lieutenant colonel of KGB is expert in plotting and carrying out assassinations. That is part of their training, as is suppression of information (propaganda expert) and "damage control." (This is the "means" portion.)
And let us not forget, exaggerated reports of fog (if it was really so bad, why wasn't the airport closed due to weather, as is standard procedure) as well as gunshots at Smolensk crash site. Most logical explanation for gunshots is that Russian soldiers were either dispatched or lying in waiting to prevent intrusion by witnesses and to ensure control of evidence. Those are indeed gunshots from a hand-gun. I played this video for a couple of guys who served in the army-they confirmed. Ammunition blasting off spontaneously from heat and fire sound different, more erratic and hollow. Note especially first shot in video. Unmistakable gun-shot, with echo. Remember, Russian guy in video is close enough to distinguish which is reason for his panicked cursing.
...
Also remember reports of Polish officials initially being barred/physically restrained from access to crash site (shown below), and reports of Polish complaints concerning lack of information.
"That probe is moving fairly quickly, aviation experts said, but some Poles have complained about a lack of public information, including the transcript of conversation in the cockpit before the accident.
Jerzy Artymiak, spokesman for Polish military prosecutors, said one of three black boxes found will be brought to Poland...while the other two continue to be examined in Russia."
You would have to be completely lacking basic critical thinking capacity not to seriously consider this as justifiable means, motive, and opportunity.
1) Who?
--Putin & Tusk
2) What?
--Assassination by plane crash
3) When?
--Known
4) Where?
--Smolensk airport
5) Why? (The "why" also answers the "who." Strong motive usually points to perpetrator.)
Power & revenge--usually the strongest motivators in political assassinations. Here is who would benefit most and why:
"Tusk-A friend to Russia?"
"Polish Plane Crash Boost PM Tusk" (Motive: power)
"Polish premier's ill-fated trip shrouded in acrimony" (Acrimony over how to deal with Russia. Tusk=pro-Russia, Kaczynski not. Motive: power & revenge. Also, very convenient that Tusk had been "invited" several days earlier alone.)
"Poland PM Tusk Considers Running for President" (Motive: power)
"Poland's air crash also killed a swathe of the country's elite" (Consider their accomplishments and ask, "Did they help or hinder Russia?" Motive: revenge)
"Scent of shale gas hangs over Katyn" (Motive: Money & power)
"Poles wary of Nord Stream pact" (Note pipeline originally planned directly from Russia to Germany)
"Nord Stream Ensures Unrestricted Access to Polish Ports" (March 5, 2010-route change press release. Now possible from Russia to Poland. Motive: power...keeping Poland "in line" with gas supply or else cut off like in Ukraine. Remember Kaczynski was pro-West and Tusk much more pro-Russia).
"Analysis: Polish euro dream still elusive after crash" (It's better for Russia if Poland does not go Euro-keeps Poland more isolated from West. Easier to manipulate and strong-arm Poland.)
" The death of Poland's president carries a terrible echo of his country's past" (Illustrates how much of a thorn in the side of Putin Kaczynski really was.)
"Redzikowo Missile Defense Shield" (More pain-in-the-ass for Russia, part of revenge motive)
"Polish President Kaczynski was nationalist, pro-U.S" (Motive: more revenge)
"Diplomats mull practical impact of Polish air disaster" (Reasons for elimination of Kaczynski and key party players who were pain-in-the asses for both Putin & Tusk)
And, last but not least-
"Throughout history, Russian leaders have sought to suppress dissent by driving critics into exile - or worse"
6) How?
Plane was overhauled just several months earlier in Russia. Opportunity for sabotage. (This is both the "means" and opportunity")
Ex-lieutenant colonel of KGB is expert in plotting and carrying out assassinations. That is part of their training, as is suppression of information (propaganda expert) and "damage control." (This is the "means" portion.)
And let us not forget, exaggerated reports of fog (if it was really so bad, why wasn't the airport closed due to weather, as is standard procedure) as well as gunshots at Smolensk crash site. Most logical explanation for gunshots is that Russian soldiers were either dispatched or lying in waiting to prevent intrusion by witnesses and to ensure control of evidence. Those are indeed gunshots from a hand-gun. I played this video for a couple of guys who served in the army-they confirmed. Ammunition blasting off spontaneously from heat and fire sound different, more erratic and hollow. Note especially first shot in video. Unmistakable gun-shot, with echo. Remember, Russian guy in video is close enough to distinguish which is reason for his panicked cursing.
...
Also remember reports of Polish officials initially being barred/physically restrained from access to crash site (shown below), and reports of Polish complaints concerning lack of information.
"That probe is moving fairly quickly, aviation experts said, but some Poles have complained about a lack of public information, including the transcript of conversation in the cockpit before the accident.
Jerzy Artymiak, spokesman for Polish military prosecutors, said one of three black boxes found will be brought to Poland...while the other two continue to be examined in Russia."
You would have to be completely lacking basic critical thinking capacity not to seriously consider this as justifiable means, motive, and opportunity.
Photo of Russian officials restraining Polish investigators
PolishDude - | 22
16 Apr 2010 / #447
Poland's Member of the Parliament, Artur Gorski, is blaming the Russians for the tragic plane crash that killed President, Lech Kaczynski, the UK Independent and Daily Telegraph write.
Gorski, an MP from Kaczynski's Law and Justice party, says the Russians did not want the plane to land because they didn't want the President to attend the ceremony of the World War II memorial over Moscow's decades of lies about Katyn.
Gorski is, however, only blaming Russia for "indirectly" causing the crash - ie, attempting to force the Poles to miss the ceremony because of bad weather over feares the Saturday event would overshadow the one on April 7, attended by the Polish Prime Minister, Donald Tusk and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin.
Gorski, an MP from Kaczynski's Law and Justice party, says the Russians did not want the plane to land because they didn't want the President to attend the ceremony of the World War II memorial over Moscow's decades of lies about Katyn.
Gorski is, however, only blaming Russia for "indirectly" causing the crash - ie, attempting to force the Poles to miss the ceremony because of bad weather over feares the Saturday event would overshadow the one on April 7, attended by the Polish Prime Minister, Donald Tusk and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin.
novinite.com/view_news.php?id=115206
Finally, a Pole more concerned about the suspicious circumstances than about where Kaczynski is to be buried.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2127
16 Apr 2010 / #449
*targeting an hostile citizen whom don't want the best of it's country*
Despite the fact this thread is quite interesting due to the quantity of details provided, i actually think you guys could write down a whole romance with the possible theories without reaching anything!
Really, no matter how absurd it may be, any theory which can't be decisively refuted, could be exact indeed.
Actually, you could even blame some random alien u.f.o ray-sucking the pilot's brain without finding a good way to prove their innocence or their involvement at all!
So ok Olga, Russia MAY be the responsable (it sounds like a political fiction romance to me ,anyway it may be...). Nothing more to add you have, since this remains a mere theory. Seeing that people is firmly refusing your PoV due of lack (absence) of real proofs, why don't you just stop keeping on with that?
Thank you very much for sharing your opinions, they actually are interesting.
But the real matter is this:
absence of proofs = innocence.
absence of a decisive proof = still innocence.
interesting and likely theories remain, precisely, mere theories. Untill someone finds a decisive proof to substain them with.
so you see, no point in trying harder..
I think we all hope for the fact to be fully investigated from different PoVs anyway..i'll be waiting for more infos..
Really, no matter how absurd it may be, any theory which can't be decisively refuted, could be exact indeed.
Actually, you could even blame some random alien u.f.o ray-sucking the pilot's brain without finding a good way to prove their innocence or their involvement at all!
So ok Olga, Russia MAY be the responsable (it sounds like a political fiction romance to me ,anyway it may be...). Nothing more to add you have, since this remains a mere theory. Seeing that people is firmly refusing your PoV due of lack (absence) of real proofs, why don't you just stop keeping on with that?
Thank you very much for sharing your opinions, they actually are interesting.
But the real matter is this:
absence of proofs = innocence.
absence of a decisive proof = still innocence.
interesting and likely theories remain, precisely, mere theories. Untill someone finds a decisive proof to substain them with.
so you see, no point in trying harder..
I think we all hope for the fact to be fully investigated from different PoVs anyway..i'll be waiting for more infos..