Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland?

Ah, yet more of the "If you're not with us, then you must be ZOMO" talk?

Sorry Ironside, but there's plenty of people who supported a free and independent Poland, yet they want nothing to do with Kaczynski and his mob.


Barney, do you understand why Ruch Palikota came into existence? Do you know why they won 3rd place in the Sejm?

Ruch Palikota stand for doing things that no-one else is proposing. But tell us, how would you deal with KRUS?

Just as there are two types of people: the ones who live in Poland so they can help make Poland a better place, and the ones who don't.

There's 10 types of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Prince Adam Jerzy Czartoryski actually
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Jerzy_Czartoryski

This is true my point however is that if you don't recognise an obvious cliche like promising to "fix the economy" any political discussion would quickly end. There is not much to comment on in his programme except the usual tea party stuff all dressed up with a bit of theatrics.


Yeah the guy is a publicity junky


Do you know why 90% of the voters rejected them? Would it have anything to do with their mad right wing policies?

Well obviously. But that's why I'm extending that to the program of this party.


Then you clearly do not realize what this party has to offer.

No longer, SLD is third. Palikot may squeak into the Sejm in 2015 if he can get enough off-the-wall voters to give him the 5%. If so, he'll again be teh Sejm's fly in the ointment or a peskily buzzing mozzie. Actually a band of clowns may even provide some colour and diversion to lighten the atmosphere on occasion.

Last time I checked Palikot was still the third biggest party in Sejm. Or are you quoting the polls? The same polls that used to give him 1-2% of popular vote?


He initiated way more social debates in 2 years than anyone else within the last 2 decades. It makes people realize that some things can actually change and Poland can finally become a progressive, not a backward country.


Palikot and his party have an agenda and so far they do all they can to keep it right on track.

No longer? Ruch Palikota are very much third in terms of the number of seats. Furthermore, they have managed to energise a cross section of society - I notice that they're really making inroads in smaller towns in Poland.


Except 90% of voters didn't reject them.

As for Ironside, you and Polonius really have some sort of obsession with gay sex.

I know it's obvious but you described it as rubbish above.


I do they are offering a disaster for Poland but thankfully vanity projects everywhere have a history of collapsing.


They got 10% of the vote 90% rejected them, are you confusing the total electorate with those who voted?

come on don't be shy, you looved that ....


Why?What are-you talking about?
Obsession? you lost me? Are you sure that you haven't confused threads?

Not in temrs of public support and that's what counts at the polls. Their last showing was purely a fluke which will never be repeated. When people want to see a clown they go to MdcDonald's and say 'hi' to Ronald.

Polonius, I think we all know by now that your thoughts on politics are usually along the lines of "PIS WILL WIN EVERYONE ELSE WILL LOSE BADLY"

Even your opinion polls that you produce as evidence of PiS winning all have Ruch Palikota returning to the Sejm.

Quite the opposite


Nah, not really, but you keep bringing this up, so something must be going on


Only time will show

was it a painful experience, shee

I think he is worse than the communism-drenched SLD. He is more annoying. He's a showman. Yeah, if you get down to the 'nitty gritty,' he is basically a [very] far lefty, but he's all about reactions. He likes to be controversial. Sometimes I wonder how much he believes what he says. I don't believe, when I hear him, that he really cares about what he proposes. I think he knows that Poland, no matter what some may say, is still, essentially, at its core, a Christian, generally right wing country [taking that PO, who was elected, is a centre right party, hence more right wing, theoretically]. When he says the stuff he says, he knows it will anger the majority, and get him attention. He will also be loved and adored, by the minority, who have similar views to him, and see him as their great night in shining armour.

How will introducing a flat tax rate help Poland and save the economy? How will using Tax havens help Poland? How do Tax havens help anyone other than criminals and those wishing to either avoid tax or evade tax?

Its fundamentally unfair and typical Tea party stuff

The movement is a joke, conning people with apparently liberal sounding policies while removing the possibility of real change, it's the politics of the class room.


There is a certain self appointed urban elite who through the years have demonstrated their willingness to embrace any apparently radical view in an attempt to appear progressive.

There are only so many coffee mornings one can attend before disillusionment set in and its on to the next big thing.

Oh dear WP. Yet again, your political knowledge is shown to be utterly lacking, as anyone with half a brain can see that abolishing KRUS and reforming ZUS is anything but "very far left". A genuine far left individual would abolish private business for a start.


Poland is generally left wing, not right wing. SLD - left. AWS - left. PiS - left. PSL - centre left. Palikot - centre left.


Which will put him in a position of power due to the way that the Polish electoral system works.

He's just a liberal businessman. Using over-identification to raise shock levels among the Teabagger/Taliban Poles. He's no more of a lefty than Silvio Berlusconi.


are you confusing your left with your right.

Did delph make another snap judgment. Yep, looks like it, but he can't help thinking he is the key of knowledge. Must bet the way he was brought up or something.

Actually my political knowledge is not utterly lacking in anything. To be honest, if you want to go down that road, then none of the parties in the country are left or right, since they often have left and right wing views on different issues. It depends what the topic is. Some topics and issues get more flexibility than others. By that standard, we have nothing but centrist parties in Poland.


Erm no. For somebody who lives in Poland, and likes to attack those that do not, for not knowing anything about it, you are way off on this one. You seem to be judging left and right, based on some very non Polish meanings of the political left and right. I assume you have watched the news. Have you ever heard anybody, on Polsat, TVN, TVP or other channels, refer to PiS as a left wing party? Just because they are financially more socialist, does not stop them from being seen as a right wing, conservative party in Poland.


Fair way to put it. He is a businessman and showman, firstly, then a liberal politician as an afterthought. They key is, to get attention.

you tell me


Definitely better then Christianl-leftist PiS.


Yes, he has many leftist postulates such as flat tax and decreasing the role of government in peoples' lives. Saying a party if leftist or rightist doesn't cut it anymore.


Why wouldn't he? It's a way of changing our country, a good way.


Which hopefully will change sooner or later


So it's just like PiS. When they say the stuff they say, they know it will anger the majority, and get them attention. That's why PiS has so much negative elctorate.


Nowhere near that, merely a person who filled the void in Polish political scene. But since he did, a lot of unrepresented people got someone to vote for.


I'm going to refer you to the Laffer curve regarding how decreasing any sort of tax burden can increase tax revenue. And that's just for starters.


Do your homework, as what he's offering is indeed a real change.


Then why do PiS or SLD still have so much popularity?


Clearly, they show lack of independent thinking in this matter. "I heard they're leftist so they must be leftist". Calling a circle square doesn't make it one.


Good. At least he's not in it for money but for the program and the ideas his party stands for.


There is not a single party he mentioned that would have a truly rightist economical program. So doubtful he's confusing anything. PiS is just like SLD with a great doze of bigotry.

According to wiki PiS is Center Right or Right Wing. Thats the most common way ive heard of them being called.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Justice

Going further, wiki says PO is Center Right too...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Platform

All in all though,

I have come to a conclusion, that for different individuals or countries "left and right" will mean different things.
It might be an outdated concept for this day and age. They should really come up with a new more accurate political chart or spectrum.

They already have, a long time ago.
https://polishforums.com/news/poland-palikot-liberal-modern-46911/4/#msg1375356

For a second I thought that was a different topic but quickly realized it was an earlier post which I missed.

The Nolan chart looks familiar. I think thats the one Political Compass (a website) uses if I remember.
However, from what Ive seen, its still not that mainstream. Another problem is even the Nolan chart uses "left" and "right". Maybe should be renamed (I realize it says economic). I dunno.

Blah blah im going off topic.

And it's absolutely wrong. The North American media does a dreadful job of explaining what PiS are.

Just to help you though, given your Canadian roots - tell me, what kind of right wing party would ever tolerate support by a trade union?


Christian Democrat, not centre right.


Oh dear. You do realise that it's in the interests of PiS not to be described as socialist, even though their economic policies are about as hard left as they come?

What this movement is proposing is nonsense. It doesn't matter how many free condoms are distributed or how many people are shocked at the sight of a dildo the fact remains that without any chance of progression people will be left to stagnate while the rich get richer.

The idea that a flat tax rate will somehow generate more tax income is a fantasy and it is also fundamentally unfair. Where the one time trick of deregulation has been used there is no longer a panacea other than tax cuts for the rich and that is exactly what a flat tax is.

The crazy economics coming from Chicago have been thoroughly discredited. The idea of trickle down has been thoroughly discredited (clue was in the name) the economics of privatise profit nationalise debt is toxic for society, doesn't matter how many tax havens you invent or use people will not move socially.

Tea party economics benefit the rich not the common person.

Barney, do you know anything about ZUS and KRUS in Poland? Can you perhaps explain to us why people will stagnate if these are reformed?

You do realise that much of what Palikot proposes will make life easier for both workers and company owners?


Do you know how much deregulation needs to be carried out in Poland?

More cliches, can you name a political party anywhere that doesn't say the same thing?

At least in Poland, there's only one party proposing this - Ruch Palikota.

I'm glad that there are no serious parties effectively proposing to privatise pensions.