US military hardware coming to Poland

More russian junk hardware. Worthless.

Well, US Strykers didn't show much reliability on Dragon Ride exercises too ;)

Merged: PiS potentially putting Poland's security at risk by cancelling Patriot order

Well, well, well. If we didn't need any more proof that PiS is Putin's best friend, we now see the latest story...


defensenews.com/story/defense/2015/11/25/polands-new-government-rethinks-patriot-missiles-airbus-choppers/76395322/

Patriot missiles are very, very good indeed, and this just goes to show that PiS are not really interested in the defence of Poland.

At one topic you blame PiS for spend money at the Armed forces.

At another topic you blame PiS for not spend money with weapons.

Your passion for PiS is making you obsessed delph.

Said that, i agree with the idea of PiS of Poland develop their own weapons instead of be dependent of USA.

Another wise decision of PiS.

Perhaps this decision came as a result of the minister being advised by a 20-year old?


So you think that Poland can develop and build anti-missile technology, do you?

Your cluelessness is unlimited. There wasn't any deal to begin with.

Feel free to educate yourself: ht tp://www.janes.com/article/50874/poland-selects-patriot-system-for-its-wisla-air-defence-programme

Patriot missile systems would not protect Poland from a full on conventional Russian strike, so what is the point of having them? Sabre rattling for NATO that's all.

Neither would the Polish army, so what's the point in having it?

Don't make me laugh, I know about these issues 1000 time more than you will ever learn. Patriot was selected for "further negotiations", there was no contract signed and pretty much nothing done except propaganda for the media. Just think for a while, would so super duper "pro-American" PiS came up with something like this If the whole thing hadn't been so far processed on the kindergarten level ?

They should ask Yanks for several 2nd hand batteries as a temporary solution and start the whole process from the beginning.

Harry "Polish army, so what's the point in having it" To act as a rapid reaction force if Poland's interests around the world are threatened., and to prepare for the threat from the soon to be Islamic state of Germany.

That's the overall strategy of lefties/EUnuchs/Gerries/thieves/MSM and all that trash. PiS is going to provoke war with Russia/PiS is becoming too pro-Russian, too pro-American/not enough pro-American, too militaristic/put Poland's security at risk. It doesn't matter what is really going on, the strategy is to make as much noise as they can. Just like in 2005-2007. Then it worked out and traitors too over. Unfortunately just like anywhere else, some people are morons who can't think on their own, just believe in what they hear. Hopefully there won't be "fool me twice".

Jacek Bartosiak o siłach zbrojnych
youtube.com/watch?v=_UsnZG4dqg0
Highly recommended. This 8:24 long interview is worth more than a hour with most other strategy "experts". Bartosiak claims Polish military command has no vision, and that yes, defeating an aggressor like Russian Federation is possible - but requires a coherent Plan. What Poland buys and how it modernizes its army should flow from the overall strategy - not from wishes of military, which would like more WW2 style equipment and glory. For example Poland should definitely have submarines, but not ones focused on sinking warships. According to Bartosiak, Russian Federation has more to fear on Baltic sea than Poland, in part due to the advancement of missile technology. Polish submarines should have cruise missile capabilities, sensors, equipment for laying mines, destroying undersea cables etc. More generally Bartosiak advocates high tech and highly trained armed forces geared towards deterrance. "Narew" missile system instead of "Wisła" Don't try to beat Russian Federation at its own game - conventional warfare.

As for Patriots, according to Jacek Bartosiak it's a dumb idea! Counter-missiles are several times more expensive than plain missiles.

Bullet-proof vests cost a lot more than bullets, but they're still very popular with people who might get shot at.

Bad analogy.

It doesn't cost money for a bulletproof vest to work, but each counter-missile has a cost and is single use only. A vest pulled off a dead soldier can still save your life. Because counter-missiles are several times more expensive, they can't defend against a saturation strike. A vest can protect against several rounds, which still ends in a couple of broken bones. A counter-missile can intercept one missile at most.

Popularity of vests and especially helmets comes in part from the morale boosting effect. A squad may as well be dead when morale breaks. In the past this role used to be filled by fancy colorful uniforms, standards, drums and trumpets. Helmets can only protect against ricochets, shrapnel, glancing blows and distant shots.

They are designed to defend against aircraft which cost 100 times as much as a Patriot, and to defend against ballistic missiles which can potential destroy vastly more than that.

Ballistic missiles cost much more than a short range Patriot missile.

However, there are issues with the version of Patriot system that Poland choose, it was border-line obsolete and lacked the required/specified 360 degree coverage

Actually after they are hit with the first round that breaks the plastic liner they are worthless on the most part.

Bartosiak is an expert on geopolitics, not that much on the military, however in case of air-defence he's right. Polish air defence should be focused mainly on "aerodynamic" targets, not the ballistic ones. Russians have so many Iskanders and other long range weapons that any kind of "shield" against them will not be effective. The best defence against them is to:

1. Spread out your forces and other assets.
2. Buy short range ballistic missiles (which are not really that expensive) and hit back the enemy, his airfields, bridges and other "fixed assets".

Besides, the future of western medium range systems (all of them: Patriot, MEADS, SAMP-T) is not clear (are there going to be new versions developed, when, how much will they cost) and they are extremely expensive. We should first go for short-range systems, in this case all except missiles (which are 30-40% of total costs) can be Polish made, missiles could be produced under license, so ~85% of money would stay in Poland. Besides missiles such as CAMM ER, AMRAAM ER or Derby have range of about 50 km, so that's basically something in between short and medium range and still several times cheaper.

In case of medium range air defence we should either:
1. Go for some intermediate solutions, for example take a few 2nd hand batteries of older Patriots from Yanks, promise them (but nothing on paper) that If they provide them nearly for free, we will buy the new generation Patriots in the next decade (when/If they actually exist).

2. Buy Chinese HQ-9s
3. Forget totally about Patriots and such, the new Derby ER is said to have a range of nearly 100 km and it should be still much, much cheaper as has no "anti-ballistic" capabilities, which are not really that needed in Poland, at least not worth their price.

But generally I doubt (unfortunately) that the new government is going to change the strategy. I won't be surprised If in ~2 years they will actually strike the deal with the same Raytheon. The problem here is that we are talking about the systems that cost tens of billions and will be in service for the next 30-40 years. It's not a matter of buying a bottle of vodka. That process require a damn load of work, not only technical evaluation, also financial side, industrial cooperation etc. Pretty much nothing was done by previous "government" - they likely just took several million from the "lobbyists" (who thought, If the next guys are so pro-American, they won't dare to cancel it) and that's why they "recommended to buy Patriots". Nothing more was done, that's why the whole process need to be started from the beginning.


Now go and check the cost of PAC 3 MSE.

Patriot missile is crap against missiles - it was designed to shoot down aircraft! Military research boosts civilian technology, yes - but it tends to throw it into a local optimum. Launching communication satellites is very expensive, because they have the shape of a thermonuclear bomb. Uranium is much worse for nuclear power than Thorium - but Thorium can't be used to construct bombs.

Patriot cost:
$1,000,000-$6,000,000 per missile
Iron Dome cost:
$20,000-$50,000 per rocket

GRAD rocket cost: (30-45km range with new rockets)
$several thousand

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome#Cost

Poland should forget Patriots altogether, and maybe go for something new like Iron Dome.

Why do you guys believe that a Russian attack would be conventional? Every military conflict between NATO and Russia/China would turn nuclear within seconds anyway, and nothing will protect Poland from turning into a sea of molten glass if - God forbid - such a war would ever break out.

There's no such thing as "Patriot missile", there are several types, including some designed from a start to defend against ballistic missiles but they cost several million USD per unit.


Christ on the bike, Iron Dome is a C-RAM system that protect urban areas against primitive rockets and artillery shells, It is "unique" because no one else in the world is operating in such conditions, no conventional war will look like that mess.

my answer to this thread goes in form of question

What you people think that is first thought of owners of arms industry in USA, when Poland comes in their mind?

Sell'em some shyt !

True. Could be. Or maybe: Great opportunity!

BDW, Grzegorze brate, that picture where they laughing is quite cool.

@Grzegorz_

So you're saying, if Russia attacks Poland with conventional weapons, the NATO would respond the same way? What happens if Russian forces simply overrun the Polish denfense lines and occupy the whole country within a week? NATO attacks Russian territory and the Russians are about to lose: still no nukes? Just a shrug and that's it? Yeah, dream on. The cold war was dangerous for a reason, but you were probably not born yet to remember.

lol...
pegitboard.com/memes/media/created/6o2vpf.jpg

If NATO ever enter war with Russia over Poland and that turns to be conventional war it would mean that USA and Russian arms industry magnates have a deal.

@Grzegorz_

Dude, are you drunk? I asked you a simple question. Are you really so naive to believe that a conflict between NATO and Russia would stay conventional?

"Dude", there won't be any conflict between NATO and Russia. If Russia decides to attack Poland, KGB will blow up some bus full of Russians somewhere between Belarus and Kaliningrad, next Russian para-military forces will step in "to secure the area and allow independent investigation". If we start shooting at them, Gerries and half of NATO will "call for a ceasefire", while the other half will say If there's no unanimous decision what to do, let's stay away. Meanwhile Russians will start full scale intervention "to defend their compatriots". Then US and UK will set up no-fly zone west of Vistula - that's the best we can expect.

NATO these days is a discussion club, America is more and more focused on SE Asia and the Middle East, their forces in Europe are tiny and NATO without US is worthless. Do you seriously think that Germany or France will go to war with Russia over Podlasie or Mazury ? That thousands of soldiers from Belgium, Holland or Spain will die defending Poland ? Or maybe US will launch ICBMs and destroy the world ? During the cold war the whole thing was working as there were huge masses of forces on full alert on both sides, first step from one side would trigger off immediate reaction from the other, without discussing anything, just war with x countries involved, ever heard of British Army of the Rhine ? Even Canadians were keeping thousands of soldiers on the front line in West Germany. These days Europe is nearly unarmed and there's basically no NATO military presence in ex-commie member states. So If shyt hits the fan, there will be no "immediate reacon" but politicians will start... discussing...

Then why didn't you say so in the first place? I was asking for your opinion, and you responded with some childish pictures. If you don't believe that NATO will help Poland in case of an attack, why not capitulate right away and sign over your territory to the Russians without a fight? You can't go it alone, that's for sure.