Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

If so, then why should the TK even have to hold a session in the first place? If it is already known which law is constituional and which isn't, their spokesman could simply announce it on the TK website with having to convene that whole, costly, toga-clad circus.

Now you're just being silly.

The whole process is explained nicely in the Constitution from article 188 onwards. The role of the Constitutional Tribunal in this case is to adjudicate, and the point of such a process is that it's open to hear the viewpoint of people involved in the case.

Incidentally, the courts are following this.


PiS will continue to harass, but as long as judicial independence is maintained, we're safe from the Party.

You keep claiming this is the case, so kindly explain how the TK would rule on a new law saying that before TK judges can issue any ruling they must shoot themselves in the head with a .50 caliber pistol. Are you really so blinded by your love of PIS that you can't see how idiotic your position is?


You appear to forget that to some people what the constitution says is far less important than what The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski says.

So can a law be unconstitutional prior to the TK's adjudication?

That, Po, is precisely why the Constitutional Tribunal exists in the first place. To answer your question: "can a law be unconstitutional"...

And if it didn't, the modern version of ZOMO would be breaking down the front door at this very moment, or busy stamping people's passports, as in the "good old" days. We can't trust that nationalist clown Kaczynski to understand what the word "democracy" entails.

You seemingly are unable to grasp as to the way the legal system in Poland works.
Would you stop spreading that nonsense.


No delph you are being silly.
For the last time I'm going to explain it to you so pay attention as I'm not going to repeat myself.
Tribunal cannot be judge in their own case. It is in power of the Sejm to set procedures and requirements for the Tribunal, which is obliged to abide by those rules set by the Parliament.

Meaning that there should be at last 13 judges present to make any Tribunal ruling legally binding. No Constitution says otherwise and no law says that some judges of the Tribunal can ignore that legal bill of the Parliament. It is a clearly an unlawful action of the few judges. Simple!

If they would have proceeded in accordance to the new bill they could have still rule this or that law unconstitutional and none would be able to stop them, but the fact is that they cannot just ignore the law.

However that is exactly what they have done - and now a rabbit is out of the hat and politick in the full flow and all that has nothing to do with a defense of the rule of law or Constitution - those are just slogans used by the very same people who disregarded Constitution and law and even common decency whenever that suited them and they used it all for their own personal political gain.

That is very low and it is a very low indeed that you as well as other guests in Poland willingly sided with them i.e. the low ugly people.

Furthermore KOD and PO are destabilizing Poland just for their own personal gain and for their benefits. They don't care or they doesn't understand overall picture. Regardless they should be treated like a bloody pests and saboteurs and traitors for the very reason that they are( metaphorically speaking) drilling holes in the hull of the ship of state while in the stormy weather. Rats.

Adjudication means to convene in accordance with the law and deliberate over a law to determine whether or not it is constitutional. So can a pre-adjucated law be regarded as unconstitutional a priori without such due adjudicaton? That is the question, because that is exactly what has happened i n thsi case. Adjudication cannot take place in violation of the law, and the PM cannot publish an illegally passed ruling. It's a simple as that!

If your version of constitutionality is correct, kindly explain how the TK would rule on a new law saying that before TK judges can issue any ruling they must shoot themselves in the head with a .50 caliber pistol unless they are gay black Satanists. If they ruled, they'd be doing so in breach of the new (clearly unconstitutional) law.

What, you're trying to suggest what's clearly written in the Constitution is somehow wrong?


Incorrect. The Constitutional Tribunal is subject only to the Constitution, as clearly written in Article 195, paragraph 1. The Constitution is higher than law passed by the National Assembly, hence why courts are now deciding that they regard the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal as being legally binding.


Okay, so it's clear that the Constitutional Tribunal has the right to rule in this case.


The Constitutional Tribunal is a central constitutional organ of the State, and thus is empowered to rule on any dispute.


The judgement has been made, and the courts are now ruling that they will obey the judgement.


There is no provision here for Szydło or anyone else to refuse the publication of the judgement.


So it's clear : the judges on the Constitutional Tribunal are not bound by any laws passed by the National Assembly, but only the Constitution.

Ironside, couldn't you just be honest and admit that the whole plan is to paralyse the TK? It would be a lot more honest than trying to argue something that isn't supported by the majority of the legal profession in Poland as well as the Venice Commission.

There is no provision in the constitution allowing TK to function in violation of the law. They clearly broke the law by not having the legally required quorum of 13 judges, so whatever they adjudicated automatically became illegal. Some of Poland's best constitutional lawyers have explained all this.

Instead of just repeating your tired old lie, why not tell us how the TK would rule on a new law saying that before TK judges can issue any ruling they must shoot themselves in the head with a .50 caliber pistol unless they are gay black Satanists? Or perhaps you'd prefer to admit that you are very simply wrong?

The TK isn't subject to lesser law than the Constitution. The Constitution makes that crystal clear.

Remember, even the latest two PiS judges signed the latest judgement. Doesn't that tell you something?

It's so simple. The imbroglio could easily be solved if the TK reconvened with the required quorum of 13, held their deliberations and passed their ruling which would then be 100% legal. Then the PM would publish it and the problem would be resolved. But the KOD/PO/PETRU/MICHNIK mafia want to keep the controversy simmering in the belief that maybe, perhaps, somehow the PiS government will collapse overnight and the opposition will be back at the trough.

If it's so simple, why do you refuse to answer this simple question: how would the TK rule on a new law saying that before TK judges can issue any ruling they must shoot themselves in the head with a .50 caliber pistol unless they are gay black Satanists? Why do you refuse to answer that question?

Interesting idea. All Duda has to do is receive the oath from the legally appointed judges and as you say, the problem is solved.

Oh so you found some more trolling, not ad hom this time? so sweet.


No, Duda doesn't have to do anything, we - his voters, don't want him to do that.

Interesting that you don't want him to obey the law.

Nothing new for supporters of communism, of course.

Childish nonsense. Dude, get a life.

This is nonsense you clearly have no idea how legal system works in Poland. If I were certain that you are out here to learn I would have explained to you error of your ways in much detail. However you are here prowling on the behave of the partisan comp of irresponsible morons I'm not going to bother.


Takes two to tango and I don't see anything of the Tribunal and other players that would suggest they are looking for a compromise either. At that junction both sides are at fault and both are escalating down the road. So far it works for PiS.

I need to add that KOD, PO and N are annoying people who are not that interested in politick and also they look like toddlers stomping their feet in the eyes of those who know thing or two about politicks.

Not to mention that they're destabilizing a country in that way just because their have lost an election doesn't bode well for the country. In my humble opinion all those people should be somehow neutralized just that their would stop harming their own county.,

Oh good, another expert comes to tell us about the Polish legal system, I wonder if he can answer the question the other 'experts' refuse to answer: let's find out!

If Po's claims are correct and the TK is required to follow all laws made by the Sejm, how would the TK rule on a new law saying that before TK judges can issue any ruling they must shoot themselves in the head with a .50 caliber pistol unless they are gay black Satanists?

I wonder if IS is going to:
a) answer the question;
b) post off-topic ad hom trolling;
c) ignore this post;
d) resort to personal abuse.

Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!

Ok Mr Expert - art.7/art.197/uz. art.8

Indeed. Constitutional law is higher than law passed by the National Assembly. I'm surprised you're having difficulty with this.


Which is meaningless, because the law governing the TK has been struck down as being unconstitutional. The TK is operating under the law that they recognise as being valid, and the courts have backed up this interpretation.

For all the attempts by PiS to clutch at some poor legal theories, the most important is how the courts view the situation. So far, not a single court has announced that they refuse to recognise the TK's ruling. Effectively, it means that the PiS TK law is on the books but cannot be enforced, while any decisions of the Constitutional Tribunal will be recognised by lower courts.

Either way, Duda has been pretty much universally condemned by the legal profession.

Do you really believe that Islamic State is going to post on this forum? Jesus!


You need to have one in the first place.

You don't live here. What's it got to do with you? We who live here and can read, do believe it's an attempt by PIS to return to dictatorship of a type. And the last form of Polish dictatorship only finished 27 years ago.

It might not affect you - but for us living here, it's damn worrying. You might have read the history books and want to dig up Pilsudski - but we want to hold onto a liberal democracy, and the other (archaic) world is never coming back, so get used to it.

Thank you.

But you're the minority


But you said that Gazeta Wyborcza uses too advanced language and you can't read it.

You mean by that segment of the legal profession that belongs to the RT clique -- the KOD-type lawyers and judges. I agree. They definitely long for the return of the

post-commmunist estblishment, and it's no wonder. They never had it so good. To hell with the rest of the country. Let the peans and lumpenproles suffer, who cares. No big deal. It's the post-RT elite that counts.

Sensible comments I will respond to.

As stated above, the liberal coalition is above PIS in the polls, and when the nationalist clown Kaczynski scores an own goal that is a game changer (which is always a matter of time with that buffoon) we shall soon see the major swing away from totalitarianism.

And tell me - do you read Gazeta Wyborcza? At least I try to read - as opposed to 90 percent of Poles on the SKM. And do you know why most businessmen read Rzeczpospolita? It's not rocket science - it's because the corpus of language is smaller and easier to understand in the latter - but I guess you already knew that. So people read the newspaper that's right for them.

I read Dziennik Baltycki and feel no need to apologise to you for declining the snobbishness of language usage behind some newspapers' syntax ( Gazeta W being a prime example - though I agree with their editorial stance 100 per cent)

A car thief who drove over a police officer in Liverpool was jailed for 20 years today. The same article in today's Guardian reports how the same police officer would regularly be spat at and abused in the street.

Not to go all Daily Mail like - but it makes one ashamed to be British. Only scum would resort to clownish behaviour of that ilk.

We in Poland are lucky that generally (Krakow police excepted) the Polish authorities have learned their lesson from totalitarianism and are under strict orders to police sensibly, and the public respond accordingly.

I have never seen the police disrespected openly on the street when they are on patrol in Poland. Does this mean that Poland is now a haven of respectability and law and order - and there is no need to tolerate Ziobro and his Neo- conservative gang with their imagined dangers to "society's standards"?

Another childish bullshyt by "expats", I do live here, was born here, hold a citizenship and pay taxes here. You on the other hand, are an immigrant without citizenship and voting rights. Polish people chose these authorities in democratic elections, If you can't deal with it, just f. out back where you came from.


Let's be honest, you even can't read and have not much clue what is really going on here. You just parrot what your ultra-left buddies tell you.

Make your mind up. So why don't you update your profile?

Your cliche of "Why don't you **** off back where you came from" is what we expect from the tired nationalist who has lost the argument. If the UK said that to its Polish population where would we be?

You should be grateful to me for being here to make up the numbers and actually contributing this last 24 years, and I read plenty, but not Gazeta Polska thanks