Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

Now things are getting very serious :


thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/244753,Polish-activist-announces-hunger-strike-over-constitutional-crisis

Yep it's one of the founders of KOD, I am surprised the hippie didn't organise a love in and stay in bed for a week, maybe he couldn't find a Yoko Ono willing to join him.

(Delph did he ring you? did you turn him down?)

LOL ! Clowns are getting desperate when it became totally clear that 99% of people don't give a flying feck about their poor shows.

key word is `was`. Yes, at one historical moment EU was best solution for Poland. There was common interests between Poland and western Europe that Poland join the EU and that`s it, times and situation changed.

We all facing dramatic changes in global arena. This world isn`t uni-polar but rather multi-polar now. Money flow in the world shift on the behalf of East. Then, today`s Poland facing reality of rapid assimilation, ethnic weakening of Poles, depopulation from one side and reality of new settlers coming to Poland, without control of Poles or institutions of Poland.

There are many countries, on Baltic-Balkan line, who are threatened by challenges similarly to Poland. Within that group of countries Poland would seek solution for its problems, not within EU and not with western Europeans who have quite different problems and desires then Poland.

So, nobody sane cam`t blame Poles for rising of anti-EU feelings in Poland.

The government cannot publish an illegal ruling. If they did, PM Szydło coudl be sent to jail for 3 years.

Bah, serious he is a clown, a serious guy would starve to dead.


No T, you butted in with your wisdom when nobody asked you to, if you want debate you need to understand context.

Poland can't because it doesn't have the economic feet to walk on its own. What would happen if Poland and/or the UK would leave the EU? Millions of Poles would probably be forced to return home without having any job prospects. Who pays for unemployment benefits then, for pensions and all the other stuff? No, Poland leaving the EU would be economic suicide.


Poland is still one of the most pro-EU countries in the union.


This is a discussion forum, Iron... :)

Poland would try and Poland already trying. That goes via open business opportunities for partners from all over the world. Poland would try but, western Europeans would try to prevent it and they preventing it.


situation changes rapidly.

Where you repeat your mantra and what you


is true. the thing is your way of thinking and what you believe is all wrong. Hence you are irritating me talking some utter mish mash. We are talking about a country - not some bum given charity, you seems to be unable to grasp a difference. Some with prejudices about state of the economy. Just - stop it. I know yous in Cali could as well live on the moon.

It reminds one of how Soviet propaganda once claimed they had true democracy which included the right to work, ie no official unemployment.
Venice toldl Poland the TK issue should be resolved in Poland through dialogue and compromise in parliament, since it was parliament that was responsible for both sets of illicit appointments that started the whole row. PM Szydło has invited all parliamenatry groupings to dialogue but the offer has been turned down. Schetyna prefers to defy the VC's recommendation to resolve the issue in Poland and wants to drag it out into the international forum. He was shown on Friday agitating Merkel to support him.

Why can't PiS simply respect the law?

I still don't understand what's so difficult about this.

Why can't the TK simply obey the law? The government's TK reform was valid under the presumption of constitutionality until ruled otherwise and should have been the basis for the TK's ruling. But the TK violated it by having only a 12-judge panel rather than the requried 13. So right off the bat the TK disqualfied themselves from being entitled to hand down a valid ruling. It's as simple as that. If they rescind their ruling and reconvene with 13 judges, only then will their ruling be legal and binding.

Anyway, how can the TK stand in judgement over themselves. It's like an accused murderer presiding over his own case. There should be someone else, the Supreme Curt or other body to rule in such cases.

Poles want nothing to do with countries like yours' Crow. Sorry. Poles want the West and peace, not recurring wars like the Balkans seem to enjoy.

There will be no real unity for your peoples until you apologise for past war crimes and admit to backing the Bosnian Serbs.


The Venice Commission has spoken Polonius - in case you haven't noticed.......

It's called arbitration - and should be binding. The commission found AGAINST PIS.

Simple as that.

"West and peace" , Sorry Dougpo I have not seen this to be the case in my lifetime, always some poor country that is stuck in between two elephants, being destroyed and squeezed for its natural resources.

They do. They rule in accordance with the Constitution, which is higher than any law passed by the Sejm.

Peace like the Paris attack or the Cologne mass rape? Nah, Poles don't want West like that.

Wulkan, the latter was simply Ms. Merkel's tragi-comically bungled attempts to establish a "kinder, gentler" Germany for the benefit of her neighbors, at the same time conveniently forgetting the innate needs of her own countrymen:-)

Not the entire West is nearly that naive, even stupid!

And now things are slipping further and further RIGHT!!! Frauke Petry might well become the next Chancellor.
Something to shudder over.

Well, happy nightmaresLOL

Well, the Germans will probably be the last ones in Europe to move much further to the right. Plenty of others have already, and outside of Europe the US will be next, or so it seems. Have you applied for your passport already?

Is it possible for a comment to be any more wrong? Let me make it clear for you: laws do not have any "presumption of constitutionality". If they did, a government would be able to pass a new law stating that only gay black Satanists can be TK judges or vote in elections. As no TK judges are black (we don't know about the other two criteria), in your version of democracy the TK would be unable to declare a clearly unconstitutional law unconstitutional and the electorate would be unable to vote in a government to revoke a clearly unconstitutional law.


Yes, but to the lovers of PIS nothing is, apparently, higher than the words of the Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski. How else can one explain his minions being so willing to so clearly break Polish law?

It's crystal clear that if the TK operated to the unconstitutional law that they passed, then nothing would get done. The Venice Commission noted it, almost the entire legal community noted it - the whole thing was designed to paralyse the TK.

I see there are five American senators meeting Duda - it seems that the US is now making it crystal clear that they expect him to stop smirking and behave in accordance with the law.


But who needs to worry about breaking the law when Ziobro decides who gets prosecuted and Duda will pardon any Party members that break the law anyway?

The TK resolution was passed in violation of the law. It is the Sejm that enacts laws which are valid and legally binding until delcared unconstitutional. No body is free to invoke a defunct or unamended law as the basis of its ruling. Of all bodies, it is the TK that first and foremost should act according to the law, not in violation thereof.

JK wanted to win a large enough majority to change the constitution. When he didn't do that his tactic became destroying the constitution and replacing "rule of law" with "rule of party. It's obvious that he has some very bad stuff in the works or he wouldn't need to attack existing structure of law so flagrently.


In other words, PiS have recreated a legal swamp worthy of the PRL (that their supporters so desperately want to return to).

Let's get this straight: you would have no problem at all with the Sejm passing a clearly unconstitutional law which says that only gay black Satanists can be TK judges or vote in elections, despite the fact that such a law would be very clearly unconstitutional, am I understanding you correctly? Or would you agree that laws which are unconstitutional are not binding and that under the constitution which the Polish people voted for the TK decides what is and is unconstitutional? Is either one or the other.


They all do. Ziobro's days as judge, jury and executioner are very much numbered and that cat Duda won't be able to pardon anybody when he goes to prison after his term expires. I wouldn't be surprised if that cat Duda has already got his staff checking the possibilities of leasing a DC-9 and entirely unqualified pilots (not that PIS ever worry if somebody is actually qualified for a taxpayer-funded job).

That's what the TK is for -- to rule on constitutionality. If ther Sejm could pass only constitutional laws (for instance if the Convent of Seniors or its Presidium saw to it), there'd be no need for the TK. The law you described would be declared unconstitutional after it was passed by the Sejm and Senate and signed into law. But the TK could not make that or any other ruling on the basis of an outdated and no-longer-binding TK law, as was the case in this instance.


...And the opposition rejects dialogue and compromise. It's like two stubborn jackasses facing off, each too pig-headed to step back.
And, viewing things from a Machiavellian persepctive, it's actually in both sides' interest to keep the controversy going. For the opposition the overrding dream of returning to power fans the hope that the protests and foreign interference will wear the government down and somehow bring the RT establishment back to their "rightful" place at the trough.

For PiS, to slacken means and give in and lose some of its iron-clad electrorate which thrives on upstaging and exposing the reds and pinkos and pursuing a hard anti-corruption and Smolensk line.

1. Make an unconstitutional law that neuters the TK

2. Say the TK can't rule on it the law.

3. ??????

4. We get to do 1989 over again!

Who would declare it unconstitutional? There are no gay black Satanists on the TK and the new law would say that only gay black Satanists can be TK judges. Given that your stance is that the TK must respect unconstitutional laws, you have to say that in the case of the new law in question only gay black Satanists could rule it to be unconstitutional.


Don't forget that more than a few of the lovers of PIS preferred pre-1989 Poland.

That's why they want to do redo 1989 without any of that privatization or icky capitalism. It would be PRL economics and RC politics* just like the PiS core electorate wants.

*with an anti-communist inquisition that would soon engulf many of the core PiS electorate in flames, but revolutions, unless turned off in a hurry do eat their own children.

I've said it many times, but the worker faction in Solidarność would have settled for no democracy and the benefits of the nomeklatura. They had little to no interest in democracy. That group became the PiS electorate, and so their anti-democratic ideals are visible.

A law is unconstitutional only when declared so by a valid TK ruling, not a priori. No matter how much anyone squirms, the TK broke the law. Supporting such a TK is supporting a law-breaking body.


It was the RT clique that moved straight into III RP with all the benefits of the nomenklatura, whereas the bulk of the nation is still lodged in PRL. With one excpetion: they are now free to work as dish-washers and nannies in Britain, Germany and elsewhere.

The RT establishment passed the goodies onto their chidlren, known as the "ministerial kids". It is estimated that 80% of the top fortunes in Poland belong to former SB collborators. Funny that Schetyna fails to mention that when he snitches to the EU to effectviely defend the continued monopoly of the SB-ocracy.

You're making things up.

The TK is bound only to the Constitution, as you should be well aware. Article 195, paragraph 1 -


They are not subject to lesser laws - which the law on the TK is.

Furthermore, paragraph 41 of the Venice Commission's decision makes it crystal clear that if the TK is prohibited from ruling on the constitutionality of laws, then it opens the door for any government to simply abandon democracy and the Constitution without any legal consequences. Is that what you really want in Poland?