Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

No, the rule of the constitution of Poland which has been specifically approved by the people of Poland.

Approved by the people of Poland who hadn't the foggiest about what was really going on behind the scenes and who was really ruling the roost. Never heard of Macchiavelli? Back to school: poli sci 101!

And you think you do?

If the constitution needs reforming, under the rule of law you convince the public and then vote on a new one. Simply modifying it on the fly and retroactively sets a terrible terrible precedent.

But you're in favor of rule of party and not rule of law and you're convinced that the end justifies the means (where have we heard that before?)

Where does the present constuituon say that the RT clique runs the show. That is a fact of life in post-communist Poland, not constitutional law. All but the very naive and gullible believe there are fair courts of law where the poor slob with a court-appointed lawyer has the same chances as the wealthy client with a fancy barrister. Or that the oppressers of the Polish nation got what was coming to them. Although it's not in the constituion, it was the SB, military and PZPR biggies that came out further ahead than those they had oppressed for decades.

If you're convinced of that, it's because that's the reality you want. Realize that no one else is obliged to share your desires to be oppressed and blame others endlessly....

The many Soldiarity people did not desire to be oppressed- That's just how it turned out when their oppressors worked it so they got generous severance packets and fat-cat pensions, whilst their erstwhile victims can barely scrape by. Is such injustice the law in action, the living constitution or what?

Polonius, if you genuinely believed that this is a problem, why aren't you standing up to protest against PiS paying people on the Smoleńsk commission 25k a month?

I would believe you far more if you were openly critical of these actions.

You are openly critical of fragemntary one-off episodes -- I am focusing on the injustices of 26 years -- injustices that still haven't been righted. There is a huge quantitative and qualitative difference. Smolensk, the constitutional row, this or that appointment, Tusk's bureacratisation of Poland and PO cronyism are simply episodes. Far more important is the big picture. How the commies, security typer, pinkos and corporate interests pooled their forces to create a III RP ensuring their monopoly. Regardless of which party happened to be in power, the RT clique always came out on top. In the PR realm, they actually bamboozled many Poles (such as KOD sheep) and Western governments and media into thinking that such a power monopoly was true democracy.

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These are not one-off episodes. Since PiS got rid of the rules surrounding appointments to the civil service, they've packed state institutions all over the country with PiS members who are simply not qualified to do the job that they've been appointed to.

If you had any moral backbone whatsoever, you would oppose them on the grounds that ordinary, non-political Poles have been effectively shut out of the chances of ever getting a good job in those institutions.

You're focusing on incidents of a government that has been in power only several months. Governments have come and gone but the informal super-government otherwise known as the post-RT establishment has called the shots the whole time. It is they who have monopolised the country's true economic power base and effectively shut out average Poles from such opportunities. For the nation there was unemployment, Biedronka, assembly plants or emigration. All the things you are endlessly harping on have also taken place under PO, SLD and all the rest. But the largely unelected RT establishment has ruled the roost and wielded true power the whoel time. It is they every patriotic politician and average Pole should go after, not passing incidentals.

This is a paranoid fantasy. Repeating it like a mantra won't make it true.


Your complaint is not against cronyism but the idea that the wrong group of cronies is in power. Meanwhile I know lots of Polish people with no ties to either Solidarity or PZPR who have done just fine in post-communist Poland.

As I said Poland is now in an income trap. In any rapidly developing country there comes a time when income is lower than it should be because of structural economic reasons. A country in that position either finds a way forward allowing incomes to Grow (Japan, Germany) or through unrest halts development so that incomes fall back to pre-development levels (Latin America, Greece, Portugal).

You're in favor of stopping development so that the whole country can settle back into equitable poverty.

Of course there are such people. Many of those wlling to turn a blind eye to the RT establishment's monopoly and jump on their bandwagon were able to get ahead. Every system needs its go-with-the-flow crowd of opportunists and useful idiots who create the illusion of mass appeal. But the bottom line is that the majority of the Polish nation have been left out and the clique have received far more than they deserve. That's called injustice.

Latest news today : there's a permanent demonstration outside the Prime Minister's chancellery, and demonstrators will stay there until the government publishes yesterday's ruling by the Constitutional Tribunal which ruled that the government's attempt to change the law on the Constitutional Tribunal was unconstitutional.

With the publication of the Venice Commission's report, this is very much the beginning of a "polski Majdan". PiS can still back down and obey the law, or they can have people permanently on the streets. Their call.

Please!

People voted PIS because of the big yellow dangling carrot. Bringing more government and establishment control down on all of us.
Anything other than the obvious solution of getting on your bike, and looking for opportunities, would do for the PIS supporter, and any populist nonsense would buy their vote.

Meanwhile, in the real world.....

Did you see a photo of that epic bit of trolling yesterday when some genius projected onto the office of the Council of Ministers the Constitutional Court's decision that the 'government' refuse to publish?

Cracking stuff Harry.

You forget of course that the huge majority of Poles don't care what happens to their country and think only of beer and cigarettes.

That's the catholic state for you :(((

By the good God, all goes well in Poland. Poles started to rebel after provocations of leading EU powers. NATO is next and then we can talk of transformation of Visegrad into the Intermarium.

I did indeed, it was sheer genius!

It looks like it will be repeated tonight. Of course, PiS, humourless as always, are already suggesting that it's somehow a legal offence to do it :D


Oh, they'll start to care when the beer and cigarettes get much more expensive because there's no money to pay for social handouts otherwise.

I expect that in the Islamic State it probably would be a legal offence to do it; however, here in the Republic of Poland, it's perfectly legal. With that said, you do have to admire the size of the balls of people who when committing illegal acts (such as refusing to publish court rulings and to swear in judges) claim that the people who take the p*ss out of them for those acts are somehow breaking the law.

It gets even better.

We now see that the deputy leader of the Polish delegation to the Venice Commission is no other than our old PZPR public prosecutor friend, Stanisław Piotrowicz. One must remember to note that Piotorwicz was an old communist who openly persecuted a Solidarity activist for his political activities, and who was confirmed to have had no involvement with Soldarity during the PRL. The same man was also honoured for his work during the martial law period - as a prosecutor.

One can only conclude that PiS aren't even trying to hide the fact that this is a communist takeover.

You failed to mention that the kangaroo court aka TK was presided over by that old, trusted commie, Comrade Rzepliński. Considering the number of his ex-PZPR mates in PO and KOD, he and they deserves the middle name "Endless".


Perhaps so, but why did most young people choose PiS? Young people tend to be more idealistic than their middlee-aged paretns. That came as a shock to PO because they failed to understand they were viewed as the "establishment". Their ACTA debacle also came as a shock. And Trump? He is viewed (rightly or wrongly) as anti-establishment, and that cuts ice with more and more people these days. Big government, big media and big business (in Poland's case foreign big business) are out only for themselves and their cosy status quo. All the high-sounding rhetoric about human rights, freedom and demcoracy is so much window dressing to gull the naive. Establishments are regarded by definition as corrupt and self-serving. In Poland the estbalishment is the post-RT clique as represented by the KOD leadership, Petru, PO, the Michnik camp and foreign interest lobbyists.

A couple I knew who voted for PiS voted for Duda and Szydło and were horrified and surprised (they are young) at the return of JK and AM and the rest of the toxic elders who were carefully kept out of sight until after the elections and now regret their votes.

Many young PiS voters feel tricked and betrayed (as well they might).

Because they hadn't learned that politicians will say anything in order to get elected and so believed the rubbish PIS promised, 500zl for every child, increase in the tax-free allowance, lowering of the retirement age, free medicine for old people, etc, etc. All of those were promised for the first 100 days; would you care to remind us how many came into being? And would you care to remind us how many the 'government' are now backing away from?


Every establishment in the world could take lessons in being corrupt and self-serving from the lovers of PIS. They have their head buried so deeply in the trough, chowing down tens of thousands of zloty a month for jobs that they are entirely unqualified for and unable to do, that they can't see the disaster that awaits them.

Speaking about democracy in Poland, i think that new Polish government and president Duda has been very strong and standing up to western European pressure. At the same time western European pressure is different from American pressure. Western Europeans would like to have a dominating influence within and via EU and, USA would like to dominate globally. So, all i can say is i applaud to new Polish authorities for standing up to regimes of western European powers and USA but i also understand the pressures are very significant, so Poland needs to be very careful.

Still, obviously, Poland isn`t easy pray as it is Ukraine.

Latest polls.

wiadomosci.onet.pl/kraj/sondaz-cbos-pis-z-poparciem-37-proc-po-18-proc/mfwy4q

PiS - 37%
PO - 18%
Petru - 17%
Kukiz - 8%

i always knew that God loves Poland

Well let them learn a hard lesson. it will take 5 years for the socialist policies to take effect and at least 5 years for the effects to wear off. In a decade Poles will wake up and sat'how could we have been so stupid?

Expats like you wlll have their experience of the UK in the 70's to draw on to realise the obvious stupidity. Marxists like P3 will of course not be gambling with their own lives and go back to their commie lattes while Poles suffer the economic hardship.

But the fact is Poles voted for **** and they support the **** policies even though they understand they are un-fundable,

So **** Poland; a poor Poland is a cheap Poland for foreigners and its what Poland voted for - poverty.

The Poles learn a political lesson? Are we talking about the same people? Intransigent at best. Unworkable with at worst. But the cream will rise to the top; it's the rest of us, including some of us who are reaching the end of our working lives, that are being ****** over

You are no where the cream level.


Hello! what kind of world you live in? :-) Socialist policies is what is distroying countries like the UK right now.


Wow you're really mad "****" with all these swaer words but don't worry, thanks god angry people can't influence Poland.

Exactly, yet there are still people that believe socialist policies are the only way forward, well evidently it is not. They are deluded, it's like some sort of new Bolshevik movement is growing it the west with all this regressive policies: dismissive towards objective science, thinking that throwing money into the economy will magically fix it causing unsustainable debt at record levels, social justice half wit arguments without looking for facts or even bothering to look at evidence besides for their own propaganda...its sad, and Marxist theories being debated as the normal?. Yet groups like KOD think that is the way? People too blind to see the warning signs?