Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

Can you explain why PiS can't simply follow the Constitution? Why is control of the TK so important to them?

Ah wait.. with the TK there, you can't introduce anti-democratic laws.

do you know that Tusk with the help of Walesa and commies did overthrow the very first polish democratic government,after collapse of communism. and then proceeded to put those commies back into power?

do you know why they did this? becouse olszewskis goverment tried to pass bill,preventing commies from getting government positions.and to reveal UB agents. which they did(macierewicz list).....over 70% Tusks KLD party parliament members were former UB agents

you are ignorant in polish history.
i cant be bothered by there is even more interesting stories about frasyniuk--one of major supporter of KOD.its just pathetic,how young ppl can be fooled by those crooks

Oh dear. Your lies about Polish political history are about as pathetic as it gets. He didn't "overthrow" anyone, and Tusk wasn't a major political figure back then. Wałęsa had huge problems with Olszewski not because of communists, but because Wałęsa wanted to control the military in the same way that Jaruzelski did. The government had different ideas. The whole thing came about because the April and December novelas completely failed to address who was actually in charge of the armed forces. Let's not forget that Wałęsa was prone to interfering in almost everything, while Olszewski was also very difficult to work with.

Let's also not forget that Olszewski brought a lot of it on himself, not least because he was playing stupid political games.


And you are just a liar. Olszewski's government fell because Wałęsa commanded significant power and he wasn't afraid to use it. Let's not forget that Olszewski fell not because of any anti-democratic actions, but because he lost the vote of confidence in the Sejm. It wasn't as if it was a narrow defeat - I forget the exact number, but it was something like 280 votes against him.


Prove it. Ah, you won't - because you frequently post utter lies on here.


Hahahaha. Gregy, you're just afraid of KOD because you know fine well that we won't tolerate anti-democratic, anti-Polish behaviour from PiS.

you knowledge of polish history is close to null,tho you have only big mouth to speak about it.


you are liar.he was leader of kld with almost 8% seats in parliament.and major player in overthrowing olszewskis goverment.allied with commuists like Pawlak..it was Tusk who in front of cameras promised commie Pawlak that he will rule Poland after dismissing olszewskis goverment.


they were voting no confidence to stop UB agent lustration.Walesa was sumoned at midnight to sighn dismissal of goverment,the same night before UB lustration bill was to be implemented.from wiki:

Two weeks following the government's no confidence vote, the Constitutional Tribunal ruled 11-1 the Sejm's 28 May lustration resolution singling out alleged communist collaborators as illegal due to it not being a statutory enactment, as well as violating both the dignity of citizens and democratic values

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Olszewski

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_Macierewicza

Guy is the typical spoon-fed-by-media type. The only time he's an illusion of thinking is during TVN commercial break.

Your knowledge of Polish history seems to consist entirely of statements made by people that would quite happily support Russia in ruling over Poles if it meant power for them personally.


8% of seats? That's not exactly a huge amount :D The party was what, the 8th biggest party in the Sejm?


How could Pawlak be a "commie" when he opposed the PZPR in 1981? That's just another pathetic smear from typical PiS voters who like to think that everyone but themselves are Communists.


If Olszewski lost the confidence of the Sejm, then it means that he lost the confidence of the Sejm. There's nothing more to it. This is democracy Gregy, and it's worth pointing out that the vote against him was supported by left, centre and right wing parties.

It's pretty clear that the behaviour of Macierewicz and other members of Olszewski's government led to the downfall, not anything else.


Magic words, Gregy, magic words.

Maybe you have no respect for yourself, but here, we respect democratic values and the dignity of citizens.


Wałęsa orchestrated the whole thing, so I doubt he was "summoned". The whole thing was Olszewski losing a struggle for power with Wałęsa, nothing more. The whole UB agent list was designed to try and discredit Wałęsa so that the armed forces would unite behind Olszewski, meaning that he could neuter the very strong Presidency. He lost that game.

opposed what?Pawlak was member of zsl and then leader of pls after communist zsl was disbanded and renamed.it was communist peasants party.


it is clear what sort of "behavior" was that.Macierewicz list and lustration bill.


"violating both the dignity of citizens and democratic values"
yea.....justifying stopping lustration and revealing UB agents behind noble words..pathetic filth they were and are.
shame "the night shift" documentary is not available in english..shocking documentary about Tusk AND other filth

You do realise that people did join those "bloc parties" because they offered some limited political freedom?


Hardly. It was several months of utterly poor government, an utter inability to work with Wałęsa and many more things. The government only had 114 seats out of 460 in the Sejm, and Olszewski didn't really seem to understand that he had to try and build consensus, and he picked fights with a far more powerful President.


Pathetic filth? I hardly think stopping the publication of a list that was full of mistakes and inaccuracies is anything other than the right thing to do.


It's not "shocking", it's a partisan documentary designed to insult and discredit anyone that didn't pander to Olszewski.

At the end of the day, it was Olszewski that lost the vote of confidence.

Anyway, back to the topic : we welcome you, whoever you may be, to join us on Saturday on the streets.

voting done at midnight..hehehe democracy my a$$


you better do urself a favor and join some medical therapy for your head problems

Just a delusional manic out to repeat as many anti-Polonist smears as possibe, who is best ignored.


HA HA HA!

We can always count on Harry to provide us with off-topic comic relief! He must have had a German history teacher back in South Africa...

After Hitler became the German chancellor, the situation in Europe changed:


ck12.org/user:ZXBpc2RhcGV1cm9AZXBpc2Qub3Jn/book/EPISD-AP-European-History-2015/section/17.1il

Shortly after that communique which announced the end of the Versailles sécurité regime against Germany and the start of Franco-British appeasement, the Poles changed the constitution correctly comprehending the threat posed against the nation.


HA HA HA HA!

How many Poles do you know who went through the bureaucratic process of having their citizenship recognized? A related matter is the legal indifference to the citizens of the Second Polish Republic and their heirs who remain in the former USSR. The successive communist based constitutions reaffirm that crime against humanity. PO and Tusk preferred to bring Arab refugees into the country rather than follow the German's lead and repatriating ethnic Poles. That is shameful and unpatriotic, not that I expect foreigners to admit to understanding that concept.


They are protesting against a constitution in which the President and Sejm can assert popular sovereignty after winning an election (a democratic republic) in favor of the tyranny of the an unelected veto by those who lost the election, (a judiciocracy).

PiS have been doing a lot of that recently, yet you don't seem to be saying anything about them.


People of Poland - this is the sort of abuse we're facing from "patriots" that actually live outside Poland. Join us, won't you? ;)


Your knowledge of Polish history is woeful, given that Piłsudski had been organising show trials of the political opposition in 1930. The 1935 Constitution was just the continuation of the anti-democratic policies followed by that dictator.


Several. None of them had any problems, except when they did the usual arrogant foreigner thing of refusing to supply the needed documents.


What legal indifference? PiS introduced the Karta Polaka, PO continued that policy, everything is fine. You do realise that it's not just possible to grant Polish citizenship to many ethnic Poles in the ex-USSR? If you did - countries such as Belarus would immediately strip them of their Belarusian citizenship and therefore force them to leave Belarus. That's exactly why the Karta Polaka exists - because it provides them with possibilities without threatening their legal situation at home. I wouldn't expect someone thousands of miles away to understand this, though.

Furthermore, if you use citizenship of the II RP as a defining factor, then there are millions of Ukrainians that would also be entitled to come here. As usual, your knowledge of Poland seems to be based entirely on Wikipedia.


Poland can't afford to "repatriate" anyone beyond a token few from Donetsk. Most of them don't speak Polish anymore - I've had contact with a lot of Polish-Ukrainians and visited Polish churches in Ukraine, and the language has been lost. Likewise, the token ones repatriated from Ukraine recently were said to have problems with the Polish language.

Trying to insult the 1997 Constitution by saying that it's "Communist based" shows that you've got no respect for Poland.


We are protesting against the attempts to break the Constitution and defending the institutions established by the Constitution from the acts of a President that barely won the popular vote and a government that has a tiny majority of 5.

Anyway, tomorrow, join us! If you're in any doubt - look at the posts by "Legal Eagle", "Gregy", "Ironside" (especially his threats of violence and bloodshed) and remember that if we don't take action, people like that will control this country.

What you call poiltical opposition were actually dangerous traitors and subversives of every sort: the German fifth column weakening the country and setting the stage for Hitler's invasion; Jewish KPP conspirators belonging to Stalin's Comintern and engaged in subversive actities; Ukrainian terrorists who murdered a Polish minister, stirred up unrest and enagegd in sabotage.

Are they stupid? IME a Russian speaker (with no Ukrainian to help) living in Poland can become very fluent in Polish in just a few months of not too arduous study. And they should have some knowledge of Ukrainian which should help a lot (the way I distinguish between the two is I understand a lot more words when I hear Ukrainian).

Maybe they're crowded together and not getting enough interaction with people besides themselves?

That attempt at a constitution is invalid since Lech Wałęsa was the president of the Second Polish Republic at the time, and had not signed his assent to any of it. Everything else is communist based, which I don't respect.


Yes, and we would go there too. That would be far better than letting millions of Arabs into the country.


These foreign subversives are protesting the democratically elected government of Poland, and its president in support of a political stunt by an illegal judgment from five judges, a clear minority, on the communist era creation known as the Constitutional Tribunal.


No, if they hold Polish citizenship and don't claim another citizenship, then they remain Polish citizens. It can't be finessed.


I think not because many want to come to Poland to work. They do come from a communist culture which doesn't value competition, etc., and repeats anti-Polinist smears. One of those smears is how the Second Polish Republic educated the illiterate peasants who spoke a more Polish dialect of Ukrainian in Polish. Many Ukrainians and Belorussians, not all ethnic Poles, are now studying in Poland. As you note, learning Polish is not a challenge for them unless they are idiots.

I know. I've dealt with some. A particular problem is readjusting their attitudes and realizing the Polish education system (while plagued with many problems) is not completely and openly corrupt as in former USSR countries (I've heard stories of students having to collect graft payments to even get professors to show up for exams east of the border, passing the exam is of course extra).

Also, trauma from Russian military aggression and being separated from others and spending most of their time with each other could be a contributing factor (since I may have been a bit harsh earlier).

Could you perhaps explain your comments with reference to Polish law? Given that the PRL was internationally recognised and met all the criteria for sovereignty while the II RP had ceased the exist in the eyes of international law, it seems that you're completely at odds with the opinion of the vast majority of Poles as well as the international community.


"we"? You're American, not Polish. More to the point - I think you'll struggle to find anyone willing to let in millions of ex-USSR citizens into Poland freely.


Foreign subversives? This is a protest movement led by Poles, organised by Poles and supported by Poles. Furthermore, the judgement wasn't illegal, as it was made in accordance with the Constitution and the Constitutional Tribunal Act.


What are you talking about? They were citizens of the USSR and then of the successor states - they lost Polish citizenship. Given that you struggle with Polish law so much, perhaps you should read the 1951 Polish Citizenship Act.



polish-citizenship-act-1951.cklawoffice.eu/

They lost their citizenship through the 1951 Act. Clearly, you're lacking in knowledge about Polish citizenship law.

The factually incorrect information by "Legal Eagle" is exactly why I strongly encourage everyone to take to the streets tomorrow to counter the crude and incorrect propaganda spouted by pro-government forces.

Tomorrow's demonstrations. If you care about our democracy, join us!

• 
  12341421_52368028112.jpg
  

I'm giving a swerve to the office Christmas party tonight so as to make sure I'm in a fit state to be outside the court at noon tomorrow.

if you were only as determined to fight for your own independence as you are now to defend polish constitution ,you wouldn't been sucking English willy for 800 years,my Scottish friend.

Or molesting the sheep.

Likewise, I'll be getting an early night to make sure that I get there.

The two comments above this post entirely show why we need to defend our democracy against the kind of people that think in such crude terms.

Anyway, last post before bed.

Tomorrow, there will be mass demonstrations in multiple Polish cities - join us from 12:00 as we demand the government respects the rule of democracy, the law and the Constitution.

komitetobronydemokracji.pl/manifestacje-obywatele-dla-demokracji-12-12-2015-poza-warszawa/

I especially urge anyone that cares about this country to attend tomorrow if they can. Doesn't matter who you are, what matters is that you care about this country.

They don't know that they are playing with fire, but I don't see a civil war. PO lacks enough support, although they are favored by the foreign controlled media. Foreigners stirring things up undermines them more. Things are changing in the region, and after 70 years, Poland has regained its role in the region.

... and above all to guarantee continued foreign corporate control over the Polish economy. PO bigshots are not getting kickbacks to increase Poland's economic autonomy. It is to remain "investor-friendly", a nice euphemism for a pool of cheap manpower, low taxes, inexpensive investment sites, assembly plants for foreign goods, environmentally toxic industrial operations, etc.

That's what you're really fighting for, although you'll need to couch it in some high-sounding claptrap (freedom, democracy constitutionality) in a bid to fool Jan Kowalski.

Merged: Patriotic-minded to March for Poland on Sunday, 13th December

Unlike the ragtag rabble-rousers coming p*ssed to weekend KOD-PO antics or planning to get p*ssed afterwards, decent, patriotic Poles will march for Poland on Sunday 13th December. The Wincenty Witos monument will be the assembly point and the march is due to begin at 1PM. That march will be the riposte of decent, patriotic, Catholic Poland to trouble.makers trying to destabilise the country so Putin can rub his dirty, blood-stained hands with glee.

I don't think you're doing yourself any favours with this description of people who plan to attend the demonstrations.
What are you trying to say here? That people who don't agree with everything the new government are doing are not decent Catholics? Sorry Polonius, but clearly not everyone is happy with the way things are going, and to suggest that these people are basically a bunch of p1ssheads is ridiculous!

What basis do you have for this opinion of yours?
Fair enough that you want to let people know here that there is an 'anti' march planned if you like, but you're already setting the tone of this thread by these scathing comments of yours.

The KOD-PO Muppet Show is the anti-march because they are AGAINST the democratically elected government.
The Sunday march is FOR Poland, for a Poland that is fair, decent, wholesome and family-friendly, one that puts the nation first and keeps foreign corporate bribers in their place. Alles klar?

Patriotic Poles didn't vote for cuts to the defence budget.

Those who support its are traitors.

There is no doubt on that.

Yes I know what you meant Polonius and I obviously didn't word it to your satisfaction.
Tell me something. Have you always been happy with every single thing a political party says and does? If so, you must be the only person I have come across who does. Most people are capable of independent thought and if people don't like the way the new government are acting, then they have a right to protest against it. That doesn't make them 'muppets'.

And of course, people have the right to march for Poland too, but I get the feeling that this thread is more about you winding others up with your comments, than the actual march itself.

I'm certainly not protesting in support of PO or against PIS, I'll be out there supporting the Polish constitution.


Your posts this morning very much suggest that you are somewhat tired and emotional, did you accompany your breakfast pancakes with a six-pack of your "VIP" lager (1.49zl a can at any Biedronka)? Or are you still hammered from last night?

ad hom trolling


Remind us which Polish companies you've ever worked for.

Mods - if I post any abuse in this thread, please ban me immediately. Don't even discuss it, just drop the ban hammer and let it be the end of it.

Anyway, today was a massive day for the Committee for the Defence of Democracy (Komitet Obrony Demokracji - KOD). Over 50,000 were on the streets of Warsaw (police are reporting 70,000) demonstrating against the actions of the government and the President, as well as demonstrations in many other Polish cities including Poznań, Wrocław, Lublin, Bielsko-Biała and others.

I was in attendance at the Poznań march, and the remarkable thing is that many protesters were older people that had been there with Solidarność in the 1980's. People were joyful, smiling and positive - the atmosphere was incredibly peaceful, and the demonstration was very well organised. I had a lot of nice conversations with older people, and it was clear that it was a broad non-party popular front.

From BBC News...


bbc.com/news/world-europe-35083561

From personal experience, the people are demanding the resignation of Duda for his behaviour, as well as making it clear that they will defend democracy against the actions of the current government.

And my favourite picture of the day from Warsaw...



In English - "Duda, you are only the cat of the Party leader" - which is a reference to Jarosław Kaczyński, leader of PiS.

From a very conservative source, here's what the Daily Telegraph had to say about the demonstration in Warsaw.


Later on in the article they're scathing about Jaro, which is only fair. I wonder how many will turn up for the silent protest planned outside his house tomorrow.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/12047373/Opposition-demonstrations-as-Poland-faces-constitutional-crisis.html