Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

The Polish Supreme court is not remotely like the US institution. The US Supreme Court is much closer to the TK than the Polish Supreme Court.

And so was Rzecznik Praw Obywatelskich! (Advocate for Citizens' Rights)


He is also a very high ranking priest. He's using his religious authority to back up his political views. He's making an impression this is the Church stance.

Certain positions carry responsibility. Every popular figure bears more responsibility for what he says. Church authorities are special in the sense that people who trust them are not fans of rational thinking. Faith promotes acting against logic.

Before starting to worship rationalism never forget Zyklon B was the product of rational calculation: much more cost-effective than exhaust fumes from engines fuelled by costly petrol or diesel fuel.

Stop to think of it, the guillotine was also an improved high-yield alternative to the gallows.

Isn't that the gas that was used in Polish concentration camps?

Yeah, you walked into that one. Stop distracting and answer the question: Without the TK what legal constraints on action will PiS face? Do you really trust a bunch of politicians enough to give them that much power?

Nothing wrong with it. If that exuse of using authority apply to everyone nobody with any authority other than politicians would be able to express his view. No professors, no actors, no doctors, no journalists, in fact nobody with any standing other than people withdrew no authority and politicians which amount to the same thing.

Maybe the key word here is religious?

Why would you discriminate against religion?
Catholic faith created rational thinking and universities, hospitals, precise clocks and much more in fact bulid European civilization.

Sąd Najwyższy.THE TK is totally redundant. Let's limit the number of bureacratic parasites, and all bureacrats are parasites surrounding themselves with offices, comptuers, secretaries, cars, expense accounts and other perks of power and privilege. The Sejm should be reduced to no more than 200 seats and the Senate to 50! Think of the savings on 310 fewer lawmakers! Unfortunately, politcians have to pay off their cronies and yesmen with fatcat jobs, hence bureaucracy is undefeatable. Tusk came to power pledging to slash red tape but left behind an army of thoisands more paper-shufflers and computer game buffs!

You are painting the picture of a charioteer driving a chariot pulled by two horses; one of the horses is noble and of noble breed, but the other quite the opposite in breed and character.

The Charioteer represents intellect, reason; one horse represents rational or moral impulse; while the other represents irrational passions, appetites, or concupiscent nature.

The Charioteer directs the entire chariot, trying to stop the horses from going different ways, and to proceed towards enlightenment.

So we have two political parties and one TK; it is not difficult to guess which party is playing which role in your picture and what role you have prescribed to the TK.


For sure you put your trust to a bunch of TK's lawyers. Is that that you fear the numbers; less is more as wisdom is concerned?

At least that's what you imply; and that's your concept of democracy.

My support to Duda and to Polish independence!

Long live Poland!

I'm not a fan of good intentions.

I'm a fan of civil society, a concept JK has spoken against in favor of a "strong state" (ie. strong government), and rule of law.

I'm not a fan of ends justifying means or the para-legal shenanigans that PiS is trying to pull which will harm the country I've chosen to live in.

Let me be your humble student. As you have chosen Poland for your country then you should know when and where JK has spoken against the civil society.

Here's one example,

wiadomosci.ngo.pl/wiadomosc/194234.html

quick and dirty translation of a portion:

"In the III RP a strong state and strong politics were not wanted by those dissident enviornments who feared the activization of citizens, were afraid of an awakening of - as it was called toward the end of the 80s - broadly understood national democracy. To oppose such a political awakening was supposed to be the task of, above all, the idea of civil society."

As you can gather from the type of mistakes I make:


instead of when and where JK spoke... my fist language is Polish not English. So let me translate the actual words of JK:

Here is the original text:

Pomysł na społeczeństwo obywatelskie "obsługiwał" [...] przede wszystkim interes polityczny grup dysydenckich, które wychodziły - czy to w sensie czysto biograficznym, czy środowiskowym - z realnego socjalizmu. One chciały mieć jakiś wehikuł polityczny, bo silnej partii nigdy nie udało im się zbudować. Takim wehikułem stały się struktury społeczeństwa obywatelskiego, przeciwstawione polityce i państwu. Owo społeczeństwo obywatelskie miało przy tym być konstrukcją całkowicie beztreściową [...].

My translation:

The idea of the civil society first of all 'served' [...] the political interests of the dissident groups that have its origin - either because of their biography or because of the circles they were part of - in so-called real-existing socialism. The groups needed a kind of political vehicle, because a strong party was our of their reach. And as that vehicle happen to be the structures of the civil society - which in turn worked against the political system and state itself. That kind of 'civil society' from its origin was invented as a wholly meaningless construction.

Your translation:

In the III RP a strong state and strong politics were not wanted by those dissident enviornments who feared the activization of citizens, were afraid of an awakening of - as it was called toward the end of the 80s - broadly understood national democracy. To oppose such a political awakening was supposed to be the task of, above all, the idea of civil society.

Do you see the difference?

Nonsense. Your misnomer is again a joke.

The House of Lords regularly throws legislation back to the House of Commons, usually for amendment. And anyway we have a system of First, Second and Final reading of a Bill before legislation is ready to be passed.

The UK is a democracy. Get it?

Now Poland is not - unless Poles actually care in sufficient numbers, and are prepared to do something about it of course..... Which I very much doubt.

We have also the system of First, Second and Final reading of a Bill before legislation is passed to the Senat - equivalent of your House of Lords and the TK is a collective body serving as Her Majesty the Queen.

Not really comparable at all. Your Senate is elected. The House of Lords is a motley crew of "peers" :) But the latter is preferable to your Senate, which in this case here is no safety net at all - quite the reverse in fact.

Do we really need an unelected body to become a real democracy then? Historically, Senat was an unelected body and there are some who propose it to return to that tradition; in that case more than half of the honorable gentlemen siting in the House would be the highest ranks of the catholic clergy.

The problem with the Senate is that it's more or less just a rubber stamp for the Sejm. It would make much more sense to adopt a Senat on the lines of the German Bundesrat - which is not the "upper house", but rather just one of the elements that make up the German parliamentary system. The most sensible thing would be to have from 2-4 members elected by each Sejmik, dependent on population.

Very good point Librarius, that is very true.
Back to the real world, and if I didn't live here and have to suffer it, I would say the Poles have made their bed, so let them lie in it.

But people didn't vote for this dictatorial nonsense, and the populace have been conned.

So I dare to presume that they will fight the scum.

Wait and see. After all you may be right.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

I have left my bible at home but let me answer that with Jesus's address from the Mount:

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." Which was interpreted to British schoolchildren of my time as "DO unto others, as you would have them do unto you."

However it is very hard to have any feelings of goodwill towards this government and their hate speech.

The current government was chosen by the majority of the Polish people not because it is their dream come true but because people were fed up by the corruption and conceit of the former government.

You mean the last government and their hate speech in the last 8 years but no worries their hate spreaders are being thrown away starting with Tomasz Lis who is now crying so badly about it. Next is Beata Tadla.

17 per cent........ And a lot of those are now deeply regretting their mistake I would have thought.

OK. Still more than the previous one.

Incorrect. The 2011-2015 PO/PSL government got 6,831,401 votes. The 2015 PiS government got a mere 5,711,687 votes in comparison. In fact, the numbers are even more telling when you look at the way that 2011 PO got 5,629,773 votes.

PO got a mere 5,629,773 votes, fewer than PiS in 2015, but literally ran the show and mostly used PSL as a vote-providing figleaf. Now everything is clear, straightforward and above board.

PiS = P(oland i(s) S(upreme)!


PO was the master of para-legal and every other kind of shenanigans. What would you call a TK stacked with 14 PO appopitnees and 1 (one) from PiS. That's what the Platformers originally had adn ilegally appoitned additional judges to retain their monopoly.

Who needs laws when you have a supreme party!

Long live the glorious people's party!!!!

Wait.... where have I heard that before?


You translated a different portion than I did....

For the last eight years PO PLUS PSL yes party had majority in both hauses had their president for most of that time, all major media were and supporting them, Tribunal has majority of thier people and somehow you werent drumming in alarm that democracy is in danger, that one party is going to become dictature, I checked, your credibility is low .

You are one of these parasites depending on a previous system for living, too bad, find yourself a honest job or go somewhere else to leach.

Yeah, the media were kind of in POs pocket.


They were following the rule of law, not trying to dismantle one of the very few checks and balances in the Polish system.


Yes, big brother! The surveillance state lives in your heart!


How so? Are PiS going to be moving from capitalism? to what? Economically they're big spending socialists but that doesn't have much of a good track record in actually improving economies.


Oh, not that! anything but that!!!!

If you are deny that major media in Poland are and were siding with PO or your polish is crap and u r understanding of polish issues are small. So spare me ur silly sarcasm.


Their people were saying that thier following the rule of law not the same thing and friendly media skimmed over them, so heard not a thing and u know shyte.

They had everything in hand why would they question that?


Your credibility is low because you were quiet when PO were breaking law and rules and now u screming murder.


Simple why would u take standing against pis if not for personal reasons? Stiupidity?