Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

I like the demonstrations, I'm really happy that the more liberal and tolerant citizens have grown fed up to the point of leaving their houses. This domain belonged entirely to the thick and boorish nationalists before - certainly because the extreme is more eager to act in this way. The open and tolerant is never expressive, loud in the display of outlooks, maybe hopefully up to this point.

I don't like, however, the celebrities piggybacking the demonstrations. I don't like Lis or some other personalities joining in. They disrupt and overshadow the ideas.

I heard that some people employed by banks have been pressured by their employers to participate in those demonstrations.

Ironside, don't you realise that these smears are doing nothing but annoying people? No banks are forcing anyone to do anything - the banks couldn't care less if they've got to pay tax because they'll just charge their customers more so they make the same profits.

It was PiS that were and are notorious for forcing their staff to sign letters of support for PiS, for instance.

In fact, the hallmark of the KOD demonstrations is that no-one should be made to take part. There was a message from Warsaw a while ago that people shouldn't be invited into the KOD facebook groups, but rather people should join through free will. I agree with this philosophy.

Frd, How can anyone take you seriously when you answer the question "Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious?" is "Hmm? Naah" , what do you care about poland?

Polands glory today is that we can freely discuss demonstrations for and against the current government , and no one will be chased down and imprisoned for their views, for me this is a blessing for sure. Long live a free and democratic Poland.

@dolnoslask around 5 years ago every topic relating to anything that Poland has achived and which could have been seen as achievement globally was bombed by the likes of Harry and some other people. That topic was all irony and sarcasm on my side. What can you know though... I don't wanna side track this.

I work for a bank and many Pis supporters work with me in same department. The only demonstration related information we ever received was an advice for expats not to go to city centre during nationalists march ( exaggerated imo ).

We would see scans of email with real names floating around if anything like this happaned. Beside which emploees are we talking about help desk? accounting? hr? it? This is completely ridiculous and doesn't hold up, not sure if trolling or what.

Of course, but Ironside will claim that it was just verbal instructions and not written ones ;)

You know you have a successful democracy when you are able to have a peaceful transition of power. Doesn't look like that in Poland. When Poland was partitioned it was mentioned that the countries that were occupying Poland were doing it as they thought that the Poles were unable to Govern themselves. Looks like there was a lot of truth to that statement.

They partitioned Poland because they bribed certain nobles who were all threatened by that new-fangled constitution thing, and they wanted to grab Polish lands. The propaganda was off course different, as it was in 1939.

to add

Then also, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic... it's the countries that are most vocal against the refugee influx, I'm glad someone is saying something, all other countries politicians have sold out.

You know, these countries may be falsely accused of racism but, its not about it. Its not problem to receive one number of refugees but, these are the waves after waves of refugees. Its about way of life, future. Not to mention that these new settlers (refugees) won`t be patriotic oriented on countries that accepted them. No, those are all future voters of EU unionists and of some other dangerous options.

It's not just the numbers but the fact that these people are unlikely to assimilate in conservative Christian countries. Poland has a history with it Tatar minorities, but they assimilated and weren't terrorists.

Even organizers themselves admit there was far less people taking part in it. People are getting bored with this nonsense and it's becoming clear what it is, the worst kind of scum can't accept their defeat in democratic elections.

The best proof of that are the calls for a referendum "to shorten parliament's term in office". The losers can't wait to be back at the feed trough. Four years is too long to wait.

The current chaos sums it up really. There's a lot of discussion in Germany now about the Polish pro-democracy rallies and the news coverage worldwide will only increase.

The effects of that on the financial markets, tourism and inward investment remains to be seen.

The blame for any adverse effects will fall square on the shoulders of those inciting street protests for their own ulterior motives.
The world wouldn't care if the new Polish government restaffed a NATO-affiliated research unit, since, as NATO themselves put it, "that was a purely internal Polish matter". It is firebrand Michnikite jorunalism "Macierewicz attacks NATO" that has raised concern.

There would have been no uproar io KOD had told the truth: that the only thing threatened are the privileges and preferetnial treatment of foreign exploiters who see Poland as a cheap-manpower and investment country for assembly plants, toxic industries, hypermarkets and banks.

But Hysterically harping on alleged threats to freedom and democracy, warning of totalitarianism and fascism and comparing PiS officials to Nazis is what is damaging Poland's reputation.

We can't say that for sure. However, we can certainly say that you are lying: the police estimate for the first demonstration in Warsaw was 17,000 to 20,000. wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1342,title,Ilu-naprawde-bylo-uczestnikow-marszow-w-Warszawie-Rozbiezne-szacunki-wladz-miasta-i-policji,wid,18042182,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=116284

I'm involved with KOD, what motive do I have? I don't have any connections to financial industries and don't stand to benefit from anything other than Poland getting richer as a whole. Unless of course, you add "general dislike of PiS appointing endless ex-PZPR cronies to run vital industries, departments, committees and ministries"


The Germans have already made it quietly clear through their media that they regard Poland as being untrustworthy now. Goodbye, NATO base.


All PiS have to do is to leave the TK alone. Or at least, that's all they had to do. Problem is, every night brings new "actions", and with it, the protests grow.


Yes, the general observation is that Poland is shouting and screaming about wanting to be a regional king and demanding to be called so while actually doing everything against such a possibility.

If that's true, then the Schechter bastard is largely to blame as are those those who regard his rag as the leftist "bible".

If you're truly not in it to consciously protect the outside big-money forces, then you're one of the "useful idiots" unwittingly serving their interests.

It's very telling that you're talking about "the blame". The right wing always needs to blame someone, because it's just not possible that people are genuinely angry.


I'm in it because I'm angry at the actions of PiS, nothing more, nothing less. I'm particularly disgusted at the way that they went on and on and on about being anti-communist, then actually put a load of ex-PZPR men into top positions.

But why do you think this is about outside forces? Do you really not believe that Poles are capable of organising themselves? I mean, history shows that they're perfectly able to do it by themselves - from what I remember, the CIA (among others) took forever to actually help Solidarność.

Who cares? You are not Polish.


It is not for Germans to decide where NATO bases are being set. As for German I wouldn't bother by they attitude as they are acting against Polish interests and sucking up to Russia. They stand to lose much more if they continue their policy towards Poland, bloody krauts they cannot be trusted.


PiS needs to put dawn that institution for good or at lest have three judges including Rzeplinski to resign.


Quite the opposite is going down and at the pick of hysteria they have brought to the street less people that they are members of PO alone.


Not surprising that you side with Germany against Poland. A subversive foreigner to the boot.

Irrelevant.


They've got nothing to lose. Poland is the little brother in this relationship and no amount of delusional thoughts will change that. As for where NATO bases are - America will follow the advice of Germany, France and the UK when it comes to these things, all of whom will be against NATO expansion to Poland.


They don't want to end it, they want to control it.


You're still making the elementary mistake of assuming that KOD = PO?


I don't 'side' with anyone, I only think that Poland is harming herself by being so obnoxious and prickly. The Slovaks are irritated, the Germans think that the Poles are untrustworthy... II RP all over again, anyone?

Total rubbish! You and a few others are among the most prejudiced, opinionated, biased, one-sided and partisan posters on PF.


...More spedifically at the way they have been distorted and demonised. If I half- believed any of those preposterous Michnikite allegations, I'd probably join you.

But we've got God-given brains to see through all the vitriolic bombast and rabble-rousing.
It's not what PiS are doing but the hysterical way it is being depicted by the leftstream media that is damaging Poland's reputation.

And that ain't just one man's opinion.
They are all British and pretend to speak with authority for all of Poland.

A photo of two little girlsl aged 5 or 6 at the KOD demo holding a home-made sign saying: WOLNA POLSKA BEZ KACZORA!

The best description of KOD goes:

ONI SĄ JAK ISLAMIŚCI - UCZĄ DZIECI NIENAWIŚCI!

ditto

Polonius, you can't distort the facts : PiS pretended to be a party of decommunization, then proceeded to put a lot of ex-PZPR guys into positions of power. If PiS genuinely passed a law that said "PZPR members are forbidden from all positions of managerial responsibility in any company owned or controlled by the state", then I could even support it - because it would be fair, equal and just. But they didn't - they actually went and appointed a lot of them. Why? Why the hell would PiS do that? I don't even understand it. Piotrowicz is a sick joke, for instance.


Polonius, the media abroad have been reporting this in the same way on both sides of the political spectrum. Even the Daily Telegraph (not known for anything other than economic and social right wing views) has been critical of PiS!

I can tell you one thing - I don't understand Kaczyński's strategy here. Had he gone in softly-softly, changed things little by little and then won the 2019 election (and with it, control of the TK), he would've been free to do what he wanted. But he's gone in so hard and so quickly that people are just angry.

Why talk about it then?


They have 1,29 billions of euro investments plus 80 billons wroth of trade. I wouldn't call it nothing!


Talking about yourself?


America are making decisions basing it on their own estimates and policies and advice are just that an advice, only diplomacy stops Americans from telling those countries with the delusion of grandeur where to stick their advice.


Who wants what is debatable. The fact is in a present form and with those judges TK is obsolete..


I know those are post-communist forces and obviously they are people and some people support them, but they are in minority.
Hell even not most of PO members bothered to the streets. That signifies that their support among the population is even weaker then I though, who would have thunk lol!


Sure you do!


The only people who are obnoxious are those who are getting hysterical after being voted out of their position of power and are snitching and lying against Poland to the foreign countries which should know better than stick their snout into internal Polish affairs.


According to partisan media in fact they are not irritated.


The Germans should grow up or change their confrontational policy.


Geez, get some education delph.

Ah, and next we will here the German media again report that the Nazi invasion of 1939 was an act of self-defense:
history.com/speeches/speeches-nazi-english-language-broadcaster-defends-poland-invasion
Germans have such a great history of benign interest in Poland's internal affairs and politics.

The real harm has been done when PO added new judges to the Tribunal, which shown that there's no "apolitical" Tribunal, just a bunch of apparatchiks. Also, I don't think the Tribunal actually guards democracy and freedom of speech, since it ruled some time ago that you can get arrested for calling the prime minister "moron".

Germans hold their constitutional court in high regards, therefore it's easy for the media to portrait any country in bad light, when they mention some tinkering with the courts there. The funny thing is that the German court isn't better at all, and the high regards are mostly historical. The German court is increasingly stuffed with party pawns, and it only became worse in the last decade because now it's sufficient to be a party pawn, while 20 years ago, you had to be a party pawn and a competent professor to be considered for the job. Also until this year, the (s)election process was done by backroom deals in a special election committee, which resulted in a typical tit for tat system for all the participating parties. The old election process was a pretty blatant violation of the constitution a creative and totally constitutional way of interpreting the German Basic Law, as the judges, who were elected by the process, confirmed.

Anyway Deutsche Bank will be up in arms about the new bank taxes (they're not that big here anyway), but I am not sure if the German industrial giants that have either manufacturing plants or offices in Poland will care. The retail business might be angry with more taxes aimed at super/uber/mega markets, but Jeries don't dominate that market here.

The outrage is blown out of proportions anyway. PiS is back-pedalling on some of the changes it proposed. The two judges that were chosen unconstitutionally by the previous government should be kicked out and replaced with new ones, to hell the other 3 PiS wanted to pick. PiS should deal with the fact they lost two elections in a row giving PO 8 years to fill the court with their stooges.

I am more concerned that they're going to throw the pre-university education system into complete chaos, after it already adapted to the major reform in the later 90s and started yielding quantifiable improvements. That and the possibility of canning the nuclear energy program.

But only when that "moron" was Tusk.


Because the Western press haven't got a clue as to what's actually going on in Poland, they are also influenced by ther leftstream media. Speaking of media on FB I saw the following:

POLAND-WIDE INTERNET CAMPAIGN -- DO NOT BUY THAT RAG GAZETA WYBORCZA AND DO NOT WATCH THE LYING TVN.
PASS THIS ON, (Translated from the Polish.)

I very much doubt that the Daily Telegraph is influenced by any left-wing media in the UK, especially given that there isn't much in the way of genuine left wing journalism in the UK.


Nothing new there. Seen the same thing for years, circulated by the same old people that still haven't moved on.

Anyway, I see today that KOD have formalised the internal structures. All good, and more demonstrations to come.