How will BREXIT affect the immigrants in UK and Poland.

Firstly, my only 'tactic' is information. Not opinion.

Secondly, where did I align myself to any political opinion? For all you know, I might support Brexit, Trump and public hangings.

Thirdly, it is not a 'hate campaign' to state actual facts about voter academic attainment, age and geographical location.

I made no value judgements at all, I just stated correct info. But that seemed to pull out all of your value judgements, so we now know exactly how your view is biased.

But are you really trying to say that the populace of Taunton or Hull is more wordly wise than Oxford or Cambridge? I mean, REALLY?

I'd agree with you there. Mostly it was complacent. But the Leave campaign was also terrible, if you care about giving people an informed choice. Probably the worst campaign I've ever seen in th UK, including the Scottish referendum. All goes to show why referenda are probably a bad idea - they just polarise the population into bitter divisions, and most commentators and politicians aren't capable of dealing with the detail in a grown up way. Leaving most of the voting public ill equipped to make a very big A or B decision that cannot be reversed. That tends to be why we elect politicians to represent us, who then consult experts before making an informed decision. Putting the poorly informed public in the place of experts is not a sensible idea.

Not the British govt, who were actually pro-Remaining in the EU (all major parties). It was several popular newspapers, owned by overseas magnates who stood to benefit, who whipped up the anti-immigration debate. That gave UKIP a platform and basically free publicity for their manifesto, for years. The print media played a dominant leading role in the rise of UKIP, public opinion, and the result of the referendum.

Better than the current EU alternative which is rule by technocrats who are not directly affected by the policies they enact.

And Mark Blyth claims the working class was essentially voting their (rather than economic elitists') interests with Brexit...

youtube.com/watch?v=3xq-gWv91WM

The EU has elections for MEPs that the 'working class' (whatever that is) can take part in, and also national elections for their govt who are represented in the EU. The EU also has panels of experts to make decisions on e.g. science, technology, agriculture etc etc. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Brexit may well help those at the very bottom of the jobs market, by reducing competition for unskilled or semi-skilled labour, but for everyone else there's probably going to be a net loss due to reduced economic growth. The cost of living has already increased, and the UK govt is refusing to release a projection of future food costs after Brexit, and we can guess why. Brexit will also help 'elites' (whatever that is too), by deregulation. the threat has already been made by Hammond that the UK could become a tax haven in the event of no deal. Now, I don;t know many working class labourers from Darlington who would benefit from living in a tax haven.

A further point. I think you mean here the unelected parts of the EU governance? But that is exactly the same as the civil service in the UK. Everything from domestic NHS spending priorities to science funding and Health & Safety regulations are drafted and imposed by unelected specialists, usually without ministerial input.

It shows that out of the sea of statistics one can always pick up several indicators to ridicule the other side. Funny that self appointed "enlightened ones" tend to implement this disgusting tactic.


Here we go again. What about islamists' infested areas of biggest cities ? Are people there are somehow "wiser" than in typical English town ?

But your statistic is about Poland. It is nonsense

They were the dominant sociological drivers, more important than any other factors. Anything else you care to mention is less important (statistically) in explaining how people voted.

Strange how you think being older or not having a degree or living in Doncaster is 'ridiculing'.


I wouldn't call Rochdale or Sunbury-on-Thames 'big cities'...

Of course it isn't. Because you could easily dig up similar stuff about anti-brexit voters. Like "70% of islamists voted against Brexit" and countless other examples.

People have spoken. That's what democracy is about, not always "your" side wins. You won't undo this decision dehumanizing pro-brexit voters. Get over that.

As for Mark Blyth well I watched 3 minutes of it and he seems to be talking about the Euro, not about the EU. The UK had a permanent exemption from joining the Euro. In any case I don't agree with what he says about that. Eurozone wages continue to grow and have grown quite strongly overall since it was introduced in 2001. Chinese wages have also grown very much in that time by the way, which he does not address.

Plus this is the guy who said the EU would collapse in 2017 - think there are still about 100 days left so he might be right.

In Greece? Portugal? Spain? Italy?

The Euro serves production and banking economies very well but it's crap on a stick for service economies.

Of course that's not what I think. That's what your folks try to achieve mentioning these facts again and again -> "Brexit is wrong, it's happening only because of old clueless rednecks !!!111" - that's the message you are trying to impose on people.

Or do you want to tell me anti-brexit dudes bring it up to underline experience and wisdom of the pro-brexi voters ?

But age, education and location outweighed that and any other factor.


Yes, and 48% of those who voted have also spoken. We do not have a 'winner takes all' democracy, never have done. That's why when the Tories won the general election the Labour MPs still got votyes in the Commons. It's profoundly undemocratic to think that a 58% vote has the right to silence and ignore a 48% vote. The UK has never worked like that, it has a *parliamentary* democracy, which means representation of all sides roughly equal to their share of the consituency vote. The Leave constituency was 48% of that binary vote.

Not me, pal, it's the message that the bare statistics tell us. If that's uncomfortable for you, then maybe you should have a little think why that is.

And... ?


And they lost. In case of 0/1 referendum it doesn't matter If that was 48% or 24%. You can't implement half brexit just like you can't be half pregnant.

Yes - there was considerable Wage growth in Greece, Spain and Italy at PPP between 2001 and 2016 - source OECD

Half Brexit seems precisely what Teresa May wants to implement.

And...so if you want to start generalising and addressing me using terms such as "your folks" then it cuts both ways, and you have to accept that "your folks" are typically old, poorly educated, and live in somewhere like Thanet or Pontefract. That's the statistical definition of "your folks" using the most significant explanatory variables.


Well, it was 'advisory', but in any case, it could be taken as an instruction to attempt to renegotiate terms with the EU, or to remain in the Single Market (which Hannan told everyone would happen anyway. There's a myriad of options between status quo and hard Brexit.

So what's the difference in let's say average age between pro and anti Brexit voters ? 2 years ? 3 ? And that scale makes one side old and "poorly educated", while the others are somehow young Einsteins ? That's a nasty manipulation and slandering of millions in order to delegitimize results of democratic voting.

By the way, I'm not really taking any side in case of Brexit, it's hard to say what long term results it will bring. If it helps to finish off EU, that's good but perhaps it will only make the German domination stronger. But I see the same pattern being used in this case, just like in the US, Poland and elsewhere - when the self appointed "elites" find the democratic results to be "incorrect", they start the hate campaign against the majority voters in order to undermine their choice.

And that is entirely your manipulation! What you did there was set up some kind of narrow age difference, off the top of your head, and some straw man stuff about 'poorly educated' vs 'Einsteins', all of which was your wording and perception entirely, and then you put those words in my mouth and accuse me of nasty slander.

What I did, and ALL I did, was to make the distinction between low/poor educational attainment (non-graduate in the data i showed you) vs high attainment (graduate), younger vs older (which looks to be about 40 vs 50 average age in the data), and location, where I listed some of the major centres of population and academia which voted strongly for remain. Just looking at a map of the vote shows clearly that it was small-town England and Wales (aside from the narrow vote in Brum) that led the Brexit vote. That's not a slur, it's just a fact, and we can use it as informative or we can get all defensive about perceived slanders with being associated with older, less academically qualified people outside of major urban and intellectual centres.

Again, if that offends you, then it probably says more about your sensitivity in dealing with the data. Because I'm not slandering anyone, I'm just stating what the data show. I'm not saying senile, stupid, rednecks. If you think I'm implying it, then that says more about you than it does about me.

what does it say about him, care to elaborate?

no it's not. Ceredigion (a large chunk of 'smalltown' Wales) was largely pro EU.

oh you are disputing with Casual facts - too bad for you - because Casual knows best - like everything

Overwhelmingly, yes it is. There are some exceptions, of course, but they are not many and don't alter the picture: static1.uk.businessinsider.com/image/593177e2f1584826008b4968-1065/brexit%20map%20distorted.png

No matter what your personal intentions are, usually that's how these statistics are being used. Which is not only wrong but simply idiotic. As the level of formal education among the under 40 population is pretty much worthless these days and significant parts of largest cities tend to be shitholes, definitely more so than small towns.

Well that's not what I'm doing, so play the ball and not the man.


So what does that say about someone who got low attainment even in such a system, compared to someone who scored highly?

The low education-Brexit link also applies to the under 40s.

I think in Ceredigion the deciding factor was that there are two universities there (though according to G nobody could really want a university education these days). it was one of only a handful of Welsh districts to vote remain.

dont be silly there are universities everywhere. No, it was an internationalist outlook and a love of the EU farming subsidies.

Pretty much nothing. How is a guy with some 3rd rate degree bought by his "old and poorly-educated" parents somehow smarter or better in any way than a guy, who instead of wasting time and money became a truck driver ? The latter likely is contributing more in taxes too.

[moved from]

They did not vote en masse for Brexit - it was 52-48 with the 52 made up of the old and the poorly educated. Support for Brexit had fallen very much, the country is ungovernable and the govt is now begging to stay in the single market until they find something better.

In the US too I think people are realising its not a good idea to elect inexperienced fools