New cross war in Warsaw

on the pictures i see only elderlies and berety fighting... they fight there but in a tram they yell at you when you're sitting and they're standing...

Religious nutters, burn the lots of them!! :P

I walked by there today afternoon. The atmosphere was frightening. I never saw so many fanatics together.
Another funny slogan was "I never knew the NKVD was so strong"
Beria is turning around in his grave.

In any civilized country the are around the parliament and residence of the head of state is completely neutral.
The police should have used tear gas and dogs and get rid of these idiots.

No just burn them! their babka hats will light up like gas bombs!

PIS voters and Radio Maryja listeners can't cope with their candidates defeat in the election hence all the booing, and I'm really not gonna be amazed when somebody finally gets beaten or even killed by those crazy people. You can see them lot popping out in the news everywhere - in the court during the case over the validity of the election and during the uprising festivities. All shouting "jews" and "masons". It's frightning that there are actually such people somewhere..

Fundamentalist <insert any religion here> get right on my t*ts. Lock 'em up and play white noise to them for three weeks then pull out their toe nails one by one. If they still shows signs of defiance subject them to 48 hours of Leonard Cohen.

Gotta love those statements ... so pure, so innocent, so clueless


Polish babcias are tough nuts to crack. Remember: they survived Hitler and Stalin and you want them to be afraid of some policemen? Fat chance :)

???(Kondzior is scratching his head in befuddlement)Why?

Don't get me wrong, I find this cross situation fairly amusing, don't care one way or the other, but your statement sounds absurd to me.

Firstly it's the workplace of the president, an international and representative symbol of presidential power - it's not a place for a group of crazed old lunatics to burn candles and pray daily. If after every death of a gov official or a well known person a cross was erected and left there to be it'd be pretty hard to move around the city streets. The cross was supposed to be there just for the mourning.

Besides the cross belongs to the scouts who planned on moving it to a church nearby.
It is used as a weapon in political squables. And if it stays it would become a memorial of a passed mediocre president at best, who was declined by most of the country folk during his reigns.

International? Me think president is very much national thingy.


You are way overreacting. Take it easy. One step further and you will be like those combatant babcias ;)


Oh, so that's where Harry is right now! :)

No, no. You got me wrong. I kind of understand the reasons behind the decisions, even if I think that both sides are overreacting. Seriously overreacting.

What got me stumped was "public representative space should be free from any religious symbols". It is rather broad statement and I do not see any logic behind it. Unless one is fanatical atheist.

The President of Poland is a secular office. Poles may justify their beliefs (and their incomprehensible hypocrisies) with a shrug and the phrase "Poland is a Catholic country," but to erect one religious symbol would mean having to put up a Star of David too (were there any Poles of Jewish origin on the plane? I'm not sure, but there are certainly still Jews in Poland.) Next thing you know, the square in front of the Palace will become a forest of religious symbols as every faith demands recognition, and that won't please the old berety much either, and then there'll be even more riots.

The religious have already got an enormous cross at Plac Pilsudski for public displays of faith; it's common for the Old Town to be shut down whenever the big churches hold a service (blocking Krakowskie Przedmieskie); and there's that lovely big Temple of Divine Providence being funded from the state in Wilanow. Demanding a cross outside the Presidential Palace, and for such reasons, is not appropriate.

what the hell? Are you blind ? I said its about politics and has little to do with religion - you panicked **** less agnostic's !

Why is the government so cowardly. And the city?
Why do they allow the whole country to be duped by a bunch of religious fanatics?

IS - It has to do everything with your fanatical Catholic beliefs. Slogans as "Tusk is a Jew" Don't thet tell it all? I bet their grandfathers applauded the Kielce pogrom.

I think democracy is worth a painful moment. Teargas, truncheons, police dogs and general arrestations. The only way to deal with such fanatics.

The Warsaw cross controversy is not really about religion but about alienation. The protesters would allow the cross to be moved if they got a credible written or verbal guarantee that the site where their president lay in state would be marked with some fitting memorial, even a simple plaque. The cross defenders saying 'Poland is here' have expressed the feeling that they have been marginalised by the powers favoured by the Tusk-Komorowski pro-business clique. Komorowski pledged that taxes would not be raised and Tusk turns round and raises VAT.

Komorowski lacked sensitivity when his first post-election statement was a pledge to remove the cross as if wanting to eradicate all traces of his predecessor. If he had class and courage he would have gone and laid a wreath and lit a votive lamp beneath the cross. It would take courage because he would probably be booed and jeered. On the other hand, his appearance might so surprise the crowd that silence would befall the gathering. If he had only class (but no courage to face a potentially hostile crowd), he could have at least made a conciliatory statement. Those marginalised by transformation, privatisation and globalisation including miners, shipyard workers and the berety (which may be your own grandmotehr) have the same right to vocie their opinons as the Tuskites, Michnikites and assorted tycoons, bankers, yuppies, liberals, lefties and who al!.

I'm trying to explain kondzior's confusion about "public representative space should be free from any religious symbols". I'm well aware of why the political parties are handling this issue the way they are (or aren't.)

It is the only way to deal with Radio Marija, Jankowski and assorted. They have to be defeated, to save this country from religious Catholic fanaticism.

Are you serious? :D

Don't forget to bring tanks with you!

But it bits me how do you gonna deal with Jankowski ?

he's out... :)


i don't want the Polish eagle wear a beret... :(

what do you care sitting on lone star ?

why do you think i don't care?

What, so it's fine to have crosses in classrooms but not ok to have one symbolic one? It's not fanaticism, it's just respect.

They should put all of these protesters on crosses, let them go to their favourite Lech..

There is an appropriate place and time for everything, ya know ...


Secular fundamentalist.

They survived Hitler solely because he decided to kill the Jewish Poles before the Christian Poles. Andd they survived Stalin by collaborating. Even now most of the people in the best flats in my block (built in '49) are former members of the party.

All the babcias were collaborating?!

Why exactly is this thread called "new" cross war? Was there a previous one too?

Excuse me, but Poles were murdered and being shot at while the Jews didn't get too much as the Nazi's waited until 1941 cause they didn't wan to anger "The Jewish-commie-Soviet people"

Even then Poles weren't much spared.


Supposedly by just accepting that the Soviets had the power in Poland meant they were collaborating ;) and I mean BIG TIME! Serving in "Urząd Bezpieczeństwa" was just a little drop in the sea compared to the Babcia's collaborating with the commies :O

*Sarcasm off*

Harry really...

This cross and all other crosses should be where they belong - the church.
Down with the cross! Enough of this nonsense and the mohairs should stop the show. Really. It is embarrassing.

I'm surprised it can not be settled by the elected officials - with the help of the police if necessary.

Eurola
It IS embarrassing! The whole of Europe can laugh at Poland now. If I had any say in this, I would just throw in a gas bomb or two, so the crowd disperses, then move the cross somewhere to a cemetery. PLUS...to satisfy the rioters, give them all complementary crosses (i.e. rurzaniec). Problem Solved.

- Because Poland is a secular country so far (is it anymore?) by history and by it's constitution. And it's not yet been a religious country like e.g. Saudi Arabia. Yesterday I was trying to read the Polish constitution (thanks to my dear friend Google I have English version too) to find some answers and what I found was Art. 53., points 5 and 6. Quote:

5. The freedom to publicly express religion may be limited only by means of statute and only where this is necessary for the defence of State security, public order, health, morals or the freedoms and rights of others.

6. No one shall be compelled to participate or not participate in religious practices.
Unquote. ;)
So for me this counts as someone's religious practises invading private and/or public space without any permission (in fact the Scouts that put this cross should have a building permission for erecting any object permanently attached to the ground I think, so it is illegal!). Even the Church officials condemned the behaviour of those people "defending" the cross.

Seeing the footage from yesterday's brawl in Warsaw, I think there is absolutely no difference between those "cross defenders" and the Taliban. Same attitude, same behaviour, infatuation and fanatism. It is not even about religion with these people.

Kondzior, I am not amused anymore by this - it was amusing, but when the police and gov't backed down before those sick crusaders - that is not funny anymore. It is the very middle of Europe and I wouldn't expect such aftermaths...


- Not fanatical, not even close! :) My view was just fair and not striving into any direction. Not any religion supported by the country's government or representative (presidential palace is such a thing). I'd object to making the tragic plane crash a martyrdom or using it for political reasons as it is being done now. That is sick, wrong and pathetic. Someone there doesn't have real political leverage and arguments so they use this. And those people changing shifts at the cross, they must realy miss the comunist times when there were things to defend, protect and fight with the police. Now there is not much to fight about in these methods, so they created a silly reason. Why, you think it was good that this cross was put there and made some people divided again (like the Wawel burial etc.) and fight over stupid reasons, Kondzior?