Seanus wrote: "If crosses can be put in classrooms and also at the side of the roads for road casualties, they can DEFINITELY be put in a strategic place for an ex-President of the country. There are plenty of other crosses for churches. What, St Anne's has somehow run short? ;) ;)
No they can't. It's private possesion and they have no permit to put any crosses. Besides that its not about the cross it's about politics and monopol for polishness. Some group of ppl were yelling there, that "tu jest Polska" and yes we Poles should show them that here is the Poland and at least half of Poles support secular state!!!
The taste of those actions against cross are signed with a bitterness IMO. Somebody called this action "żenua". Somebody called it a shame for a christianity and Christians. In fact it is a matter of a taste.
But let us remember that we are dealing with a minority of people who had religion drummed into their heads from a very young age, the church has dissociated itself from them and the majority of politicians deplore their actions. In the meantime a group of youths is taking the **** and irritating them, which i would be tempted to do myself:)
Zeti, my wife is not religious either but she defends the right for that cross to be there. You should know not to get into territory debates. Poland would have to hand back a lot of land to Germany if you went down that road. The cross is a symbol of Catholicism here and Lech was a Catholic outwith politics. Maybe a statue will pop up eventually but, for now, he is being honoured by a cross. Is it really so hard to accept? Maybe it will help those sticker labellers to actually practise what they preach and raise the level from 60% to 95% which is what it is said to be.
Law doesn't work backwards, you should know that, hence there's not gonna be any territory change in any way, be it someone giving back stolen territory to Poland or Poland giving back any territory.
wtf it has to do with this discussion??
agreed, that's Seanus having a derailing stroke from time to time for you
no way they already got Wawel castle. Stio with all thys honors. he doesnt deserve for that.
let's hope they are gonna move the petty politician someday
The cross was there for all the Smolensk victims not only Lech, maybe some of them weren't even catholic, so saying that Lech was catholic and that's why he's gotta cross there is a bit off the track.
No, she merely sees it as an expression of religious conviction as he had. The funeral was about political figures gathering and passing on their condolences. One is about his public life but we should focus on the private man, one aspect of which was his Catholic beliefs.
You were discussing possession and I said that that isn't a road you want to go down. To deny the placing of a cross there is petty. The President and many others died. Prominent people who were almost all Catholics, I believe. Now, I also believe that we should keep religion separate when it comes to direct politics but this was about human beings losing their lives. It's about humanity!
Hey, it is Poland itself that is focussing primarily on Lech and not the others.
i've just rerad a comment of victim's family memeber who go into the crowed and said that the family is against the cross staying there. Some guy said that he will pray for him to satan stop deludeing him... ;D
The cross was there for all the Smolensk victims not only Lech, maybe some of them weren't even catholic, so saying that Lech was catholic and that's why he's gotta cross there is a bit off the track.
But its pałac prezydencki. Its obvious its to commemorate the former president.
Zeti, when you have competing claims or concerns, who do you go with? Do you feel that Tusk and Kommie have the right to rule on this matter, should it go to a referendum (consonant with democratic practice) or should the highest court rule on it? What do you think?
Its obvious its to commemorate the former president.
I know - but that's what I meant - it's for "all" victims.. you know ALL of them.. bollocks.
First of all, the cross is property of the scouts, was brought there separately from the crazed group of fanatics who claimed the possesion of it. Beside the gov said to move the cross and them standing against that order is to stand against the democracy.
Of course Seanus for you it's always gonna be Poland focusing on Lech or whatever. I'm not amazed I guess you just can't look deeper.
Geez, open your eyes! TVN want to focus in on this row and Lech is at the centre of it. When was the last time you heard of the capable banker, Sławomir Skrzypek, being mentioned on tv? Szczygło? Walentinowicz? Natali-Świat? Choose your name! Lech was the figurehead of Poland and you can't deny that. The cross is about him and Tusk/Kommie know this all too well.
Typical Pole, pretending sth is deeper than it is. Enlighten me then as, according to many Poles, I see it very well. Keep it simple, man.
Typical foreigner who's living in Poland but will never understand Poland becuase he isn't one of us.
You can't comprehend the simple fact that there are people who know and care about all the other people who died in the crash. And you can't look deep enough to notice that it is all about politics and not Lech having or not having his cross. Of course this knowledge does't bereave us of the right to take sights in the shallow "cross, praying and singing" squabble. But those who understand these simple facts are able to notice that PIS is loosing big time focusing on the whole cross battle and showing the angry face to the society. Most people are ashamed about the whole situation about how the church and the gov are not reacting - and as far as I know - that's not siding with Tusk/Kommie. Of course in PIS pseudo communist slogans it is.
It's hard for me to understand how someone who has seen fair bit of the world, lived in a wealthy country comes up with such ideas, siding with radio maryja and pis, world is really falling on its sorry face I guess.
Moreover Seanus you are denying yourself, and it's not the first time you're doing it, first you say load of different stuff about religion about how the cross is there and should be there and why and then you say it's all about Lech and Tusk. Make up your mind.
I'm gonna have a long drive to the mountains now so rethink whatever you wanna post.
My wife doesn't understand you either, frd. Is she less Polish than you?
It is largely about politics and Kommie being paranoid. I told you that you should marginalise RM and PiS (their radicals). I don't support either, FAR from it.
The cross is there as a symbol, I keep saying that. Tusk doesn't want it there but many feel that it is fitting. It's not black and white, frd. Different levels are at play here.
It is all about Lech and less about the others. What does wealth have to do with it?
Seanus wrote: Lech was the figurehead of Poland and you can't deny that. The cross is about him and Tusk/Kommie know this all too well.
Let's make from "the war about cross" (is it really a "war" BTW) a tool for a political dispute? Sure...
It becomes a tool for a secular/not secular debate about a sense of Church/ cross/democracy etc. these days. It is also a question about what does it mean to respect point of view of others
Because most of people who stand for this cross don't respect it.
Skrzypek??? An incapable banker, the laugh of business community? No need to talk about him anymore.... If you equate Tusk and Kommie then certainly Kaczynskis and their bunch are pure bred Nazis....
He didn't lead Poland down the IMF path, Zed. Belka has.
I did a class on Lent, Good Friday and other Christian celebrations the other day. I began to see that labels are attached without a real understanding of what's involved. How can so many people do this?
Apathy, laziness, the desire for a quick and simple answer and the need to blame someone else. These four things explain most people's actions, irregardless of topic.
But if you tell me what labels you're talking about, then maybe I can provide a deeper answer.
Frd, I'm denying myself? Well, along with prayer, penitence and almsgiving, self-denial is one of the 4 main points of Lent. It's a Catholic thing ;) ;)
Nothing is wrong with IMF. And PL only has a stand-by line which has not been drawn, but gives us stability. Thank God we have qualified Belka in Central Bank now as opposed to ignorant unqualified predecessor.
Zeti, when you have competing claims or concerns, who do you go with?
No one. I go into street and shout fuuuuuuuuuuuck! ;)
Do you feel that Tusk and Kommie have the right to rule on this matter,
yes.
should it go to a referendum (consonant with democratic practice) or should the highest court rule on it?
Is a joke? a referendum??? because of some cross?! No it should be just taken to the church and those who don't let it should be arrested za zakłócanie porządku.
Kondzior is right. Zed just needs more education. Frd, it is BASIC that others suffered when those others died. To say that I can't understand that it not to understand such a basic human trait in compassion. Absurd!
I just can't believe the reactions of some people. Again, the labelling culture. They say I am a RM and PiS fan, ROTFL. I simply believe in the cross as a gesture of humanity to see people through hard times. Jesus suffered for us and that's the point!
You should have sex (f*ck) or you shout f*ck, Zeti? I think you meant the latter :)
It is a matter of national importance so there should be a referendum. That's just my opinion.
You made a simple mistake. To errr (sic) is human ;)
I don't condone any fanatics and will not be branded as one of them. I just believe that this cross can stay. Do you know how many people crossed themselves around the time of the Smolensk tragedy?
what they have done??? crossed themselves?! ukrzyżowali się??? No, I have no idea.
Ok, Seanus, so mission for you - go to great Britain and put a cross in front of the gates of Buckingham Palace to commemorate RIP L.Kaczyński (and of course other victims of Smoleńsk tragedy)... You are free to do what your heart dictates! ;)
