2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere!

More and more people have had enough. That's all. No conspiracy here.

I agree. All the ranting, chanting and sundry ballyhoo is to make people forget the PO-era scams and frauds and the opposition's sole goal: A RETURN TO THE TROUGH!

PO were no saints but at least they didn't want to take total control of the judical system.

Care to explain? Thta is the misleadingly erroneous version of the opposition. In actuality, do you know of any country whose judiciary is a privileged, untouchable caste accountable only to itslef and devoid of public scrutiny? Most judges in other countries are appointed by the government, justice minister or parliament. Those are all "politicians" so you can say that political control of the judiciary is the EU norm. Even Timmermansland parliament appoints judges and the king rubber-stamps it.

As much as you may like foreign judical systems, this is Poland and we have every right to accept the system as it is now. Or dislike the reforms. And believe it or not, just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean they have been paid to oppose the changes. You write that there is a surprisingly high number of young protesters. Just yesterday one of PiS senators called them 'ubeckie wdowy'. I just don't get one thing-so many PiS followers can't understand that an average citizen may have a different opinion. I'm in my thirties and I can't recall any other government that would refer to people of other views as traitors. If you don't agree with them - no matter whether it's about the judical system, the educational reform or the Bialowieza Forest - you're a traitor/commie.

It's 2017 and Poles have had an opportunity to express their beliefs for almost thirty years. Deal with it. We know our rights and we want to keep them. We still have a right to express our views.

I don't agree with the proposed changes. The proposed bill has some mistakes. Even Duda noticed that.

Pretty regular in the PRL (a major clue as to their agenda).

Also common in third world countries, like maybe the soon to be Polska Rzeczpospolita Bananowa...

It's not normal within the modern European context.

The Dutch Supreme Court appoints people for life terms but they can voluntarily retire. Ziobro wants to be able to fire judges, starting from next week. That is the fundamental difference.

the mistakes can be removed - I guess you don't see the problem with the current state of judicial system in Poland - you of course have a right to but most Polish people see problems with it and so does the governing party

I would quote Ewa Kopacz here : You want power - win the elections. The street is not the place to win the power in a democratic system.


i'm not sure you realize that in the previous system judges would decide who could become a judge without any democratic control - they were an authority unto themselves - that such system leads to pathologies was shown in numerous instances

Yes I see that very much - it's slow, over complicated, jurisdiction is not always clear, it's expensive and time consuming.

None of those problems will be fixed by this law. However a very serious problem will be created - Govt control of the judicial branch.

I'm sure you realise that jugdes are elected in the US - this is the ultimate democratic control of the judiciary - the current reform gives the people at least indirect control over the judiciary through an elected government and ends pathological state where judges were an authority unto themselves

if you think in terms of checks an balances - there was no check on the judiciary in Poland

@mafketis we're no longer PRL and it seems too many MPs are too fond of the 'old way'
@gumishu Is Kopacz a role model for you?

People still have a right to disagree with the government. I can just hope they won't try to follow the PRL way of dealing with the opposition.

I just quote her official 'orędzie' - seems like they don't agree with what they were saying just a couple of years ago - another quote this time from Petru : 'We will topple this government. If one million of people take to the streets we will topple it"

are you in favour of toppling this goverment - a hint: this might lead to a civil war

At federal level they are not elected in the US. They also serve fixed terms and cannot be fired in the fixed term.

In some states they are elected but normally with extensive checks. However if you want to talk about Alabama there is another thread for that. Great BBQ.

The American Bar Association has criticised the proposed Polish law for destroying the separation of executive and judicial branches. Political enemies or even moral enemies like abortionists or foreign banks would have judges and prosecutors reporting to the same person.

democratic control is a check enough


I'm not sure they read the bills

@gumishu
The problem is that you see the protesters as people who want to lead to a civil war. Is the society divided? Yes, it is. It has always been. There have always been protests against parties in charge. Nothing new here. But I can't remember other governments bringing water cannons to the protests. I don't recall politicians of former governments threatening the opposition with prison. Not after 1989. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Or the absurd situation when one of prominent PiS politicians is a former communist prosecutor. His fellow MPs see nothing wrong here. Just as they see nothing wrong about former Solidarity activists treated as enemies of the state.

Which is precisely what is at risk. Parties win elections and lose them. Since you evidently approve of party control, you may not be so happy should a revival and very different party, one that perhaps doesn't exist yet, wins and uses that control.

there were rubber bullets fired at protesting coal miners in Jastrzębie during PO rule, there were massive police provocations and then interventions during Independence Day marches during the PO time as well, people were prosecuted for running websites like antykomor.pl - you really have a short or selective memory


the judiciary was without any democratic control before the new law - they were an authority unto themselves - without ANY checks

Piotrowicz was a decent person back then, he even helped many Solidarity activists escape prison sentences, there are witnesses

tell me what happens to those 'enemies of the state' you talk about - are they prosecuted in any way - appart from removing Frasyniuk out of the way of legal manifestation

Crooked judges should be sacked!

The rubber bullets were used against people storming the building.
Sadly, recently Independence Day has been 'celebrated' by demolishing the capital.
As for the police, do you seriously believe they are totally new people. Not the same as two years ago? Whether it's PO or PiS in power they need to protect themselves from pavement bricks thrown at them.

And I guess further discussion is simply pointless as the major argument here is 'bo za PO'.
I disapprove of both PO and PiS.
I have had enough of people spitting their venom at others.

And to support the democratically elected government and oppose those who want to illegally overehrow it. If the opposition were truly democratic and not just "mocna w gębie", they would start planning to win the next election. Instead they are working to turn voters off -- the protesting elites may be loud and vulgar but they are a tiny minority in the coutnry.

Intelligent people do not accept things at face value or take propagada and PR as gospel truth but try to get to the bottom of them. This is not about any constitution or Supreme Court, logging at Białowieża or the managemnet of the Janów Arabian stables. Every pretext was good if it gave the losers a shred of hope that it might enable them to regain power. They are ranating, chanting and raisng a rumpus not over legal niceties or imponderbales which do sound good in sloganeering but are driven by resentment and frustration over their lost political power and the perks and privileges that go with it. Now they have shifted into top gear and are openly calling for a coup which may bear the hallamrks of a hybrid war. Sophisticated political PR specialists (probably bankrolled by Soros) have even started employing astroturfing. They get addresses off social media and attribute the same message to hudnreds of thousands of posters creating the impression of a world-wide wave of protest. It turns out that numerous posters from Latin America are opposed to PiS and the judicial reforms. Except those who were contacted by Polish journalists said they knew nothing about and were totally ignorant of and disinterested in Polish affairs. The opposition is now desperately trying every trick in the book and gearing up for a no-holds-barred assault on the democrataidcally elected government. Naturally, they will fail. Totalny obciach!

JK is all about recreating the PRL (the system he knows and understands) without the lip service played to communism....

I think that one or two posters on this topic spend too much time in the past and really need to look more towards the future and what government policies could help Poland to improve its economic situation...jobs...salary...conditions of employment etc...the usual things which people need and would benefit from.

Historical discussions are interesting but in my view discussions on current problems and solutions are more practical. Demonstrations take place in all countries and I find it strange that so much is being said about them...its quite normal to have demonstrations even on the scale currently seen in Poland....People shouldn't be worried about demonstrations they are quite normal and democratic.....if you really disagree with what the demo's are about then fine, just vote for the party you believe in at the next election.

Life is too short to debate history....just move on and channel your views on finding solutions to the real practical issues faced by people in Poland...and if this is not possible then perhaps something needs to be changed whatever that may be. At the end of the day people know what is fair and what isn't and they will vote for change if they feel it is needed. Change just needs to be embraced but of course it depends on whether you are set in your ways ....the past....or whether you want a great future for Poland. Time is precious and more effort should be spent on finding solutions rather than trying to justify the policies or methods of PIS...it really is just a political party like any other which will come and go like any other in any democratic country.

And who precisely determines if they're "crooked".

Forget appointments, let's talk about dismissing judges. Most countries have safeguards than when a judge is appointed (by whoever) that they serve a fixed term (which might be till death or resignation like the US Supreme Court or a shorter fixed number of years).

Once a judge is appointed in this new reform how long do they serve and under what conditions can they be removed?

@mafketis
I hope not ...
@Polonius I see - I'm not intelligent because I doubt the government's decisions. Ok.
Have a good life. Bye.

Wręcz przeciwnie, Kaprysiku, but it must be meaningful disucssion. Unfortunately, one gets the impression that most discussion on PF is similar to the idiots from PO and PiS trading slurs on opposite sides of the barriacade. What about seriously consdiering hypothetical scenarios:

1. Duda sends the laws to the Tribunal who point up a minor discrepancy, the Senate fixes it and Duda signs it into law. The protests soon peter out.

2. Duda sends the laws to the Tribunal who point up a minor discrepancy, the Senate fixes it and Duda signs it into law. The protests conitnue and turn violent.

3.Tribunal finds a serious discrepancy in one of the 3 laws, the Senate fixes it in a way favourable to the opposition and Duda signs it into law. The protests peter out.

4. Duda signs the 3 reforms into law and rioting breaks out. Rampaging protesters are joined by ordinary hooligans (as always happens) who loot shops and smash windows. The police are called in to quell the disturabcnes. Ringleaders are sentnced and fined and/or jailed.

5. Like point 3 except that coachcloads of football fans from all of Poland's major clubs converge on Warsaw to defend the government against rioting opponents. Serious clashes occur and the police have a hard time restoring order. Many are sentenced, fined and jailed, including PO and N MPs found guilty of sedition.

6. The opposition make use of their well established snitching channels and relay to the outside world texts and images portaiyng Poland as a fascistic police state although police had to be deployed to prevent even more destruction and bloodshed. bloodhsed.toichign channels nad cretae

Waiting for an answer....

The eocnomic situation is very good and still imrpoving. All positive inidicators are up and negative ones are down. Check around. Average Polesw are quite happy. Poland is not "warszawka"!

Waiting....