Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar

@mafketis

Says who? The only time land was ever brought up in ww2 reparations was by Stalin where he said he didn't want money but instead land and 4 million slave workers. Neither poles Greeks Jews Germans etc ever brought up land.

Closed door meaning the media was not let in and the scope of the talks were not made public. And no the meeting was not in the US

Yes atch the reparations issue as brought up in the 90s

Shame. This is an issue for poles not foreigners. I bet if your family members were raped and murdered and your country invaded you'd sing a different tune than kumbaya.

Gosh Adrian, sometimes you sound very young. Are you sure you're thirty? You're not just winding us up and in fact you're actually a precocious thirteen year old?? Most of the government of a country is conducted behind closed doors. You seem to think that public servants are locked up in cupboard or toy box and only come out to play when the media are there to observe and report on their activities.

You don't need to tell the Irish about being murdered by an occupying power. Not on the scale of course that Poland suffered during the war, but 800 years of conflict takes its toll - and we've never asked for reparations.

I imagine my grandparents misery is equal to yours - between mine and my wife's we have 2 deportations, 3 burned farms (one German, two Soviet) one dead, two wounded, a house bombed by the Germans etc. i don't want any reparations for that - rather I would like my own kids to live in a world where it does not happen again.

Which is why refighting the battles of 80 years ago is not constructive.

In other words, you're not interested in debate, you're just trying to make people agree with you or shut up. What. A. Commie. You. Are.

And what guarantee is there that if, by some miracle, Germany paid reparations now that some later Polish government would say it wasn't enough and demand more? Can you or PiS guarantee that? If not then the issue is a non-starter.


Whaaaaaaat? He's claiming to be 30? I assumed, from the tone of his writing, that he was an angry teenager.

@Atch

Well actually no I'm not 30 yet.Yes in some instances things are made public, media is invited, other ppl like lobbyists advisors or even friends of participants can listen in (but not speak) etc. That is what I meant by that. Closed door as in we knew the topic (reparations) but not the scope or any details.

Well maybe it's high time you ask for reparations then. Just BC the Irish didn't does not mean the poles have to follow suit. We've asked for this on and off since the 90s but we never had the political and economic clout we do now hence we were practical enough to not waste more time with it. The situation is different now and all branches of government at all levels including now foreign lobby groups recently are working towards this. And were not doing it for personal enrichment. If some flex actor has to be paid so be it but ultimately due to a wide set of circumstances this is now the best chance we've had since the 90s to receive reparations

cms, when I see posts like your last, I wish there were 'like' arrows on here. So mature.
Speaking of which, I'd have put dd's age at 16.

Like I said if we received even 1/2 the money Israel and the Jews got I'm sure the majority of the people involved in this would be more than happy. A trillion is pie in the sky - its where were starting our negotiating position. It will most likely end up billions and be more comparable to Greece's, south Korea's etc

@cms
Well that's your prerogative, other poles have decided otherwise. Most people who's families suffered don't roll over that easy including members of Poland's parliament and other branches

That will never happen for many reasons but this isn't the place to discuss them obviously. Suffice it to say that the mindset of the Irish is very different to the Polish and our political situation is very different too, very delicate.


Which you have thanks to adopting democratic values, building bridges and partnering with former enemies.


Are wasting time, money and resources on this.

@Atch

We rebuilt our country no one did it for us. If you're referring to EU funds its an investment not a gift. We believe this is a worthy cause and will continue to fight for it for the memory of our ancestors. Right now Poland's on the offensive and has a lot stronger case than the Germans. Once the US is involved and it goes up the chain its game over for them. The white house hates merkel and her cronies.

The whole thing was brought up so Krauts shut up regarding "huge penalties" for not taking the savages they themselves "invited" and several other issues. If they stop their Polonophobic actions and mind their own business, the whole issue will die out.

What are the chances for the reparations if the whole thing was really triggered off ? I think they are slim on the government level but If a million individual and a 1000 city/town claims were put together, that's a totally different issue.

For instance, the very first act of the war was an air attack on Wieluń, which killed 1-2 thousand people and destroyed 75% of buildings, including hospital, town hall etc. Just the municipal property destroyed then would be worth tens of millions these days. Now say in any serious court that this claim would not be valid because... Poland got Breslau or because commie gov signed something 50 years ago. They could go to any court with very serious chances of winning this case and if they do, that would trigger off an avalanche of similar cases. The reason why we haven't done it so far is just a matter of good will and Christian forgiveness. They should appreciate that, shut up and stop mending in affairs of independent states, which are much more democratic than their own mumbo jumbo where you can get arrested for writing something on Facebook.

A rather vulgar rant! The issues as to why certain cities got "returned" to whom is much more involved than you and others here seem to imagine.

Why on earth is it game over just because the White House is involved ? How are they doing getting the money from the Mexicans to build that wall ? Trump does not trump international law and he is not going to have much luck making German or Russian taxpayers cough up for something their grandparents did 80 years ago.

In any case they obviously have no time to deal with nonsensical disputes on a different continent.

Okay, let's assume that Germany paid reparations. How would it be possible to guarantee that some later Polish government wouldn't say it wasn't enough and demand more?

Can PiS guarantee that Can PiS guarantee it wouldn't be back after a year or two to demand more?
What would it take for Poland to declare the issue irrevocably finished cause without such a guarantee there's no reason to talk at all.

@cms

Lol that's where your wrong. Did america get security council clearance to invade Iraq or dozens of other countries? Of course not. Americans don't care about any international law unless its in their favor. Us > international law (when it suits us)

Obviously the money wouldn't come from any us tax payer. The money would come from Germany and certain policies can help with that for example a huge tax on German imports esp cars. The us auto union along with the jap auto lobbies would love this idea. If we need to give a bil to trumps 2020 campaign or pay whoever off so the rest can go to Poland that's fine with us. This is just one of multiple scenarios and of course it'd be far more complicated.

Circle back with me in a year or so on this topic and we can talk then.

@maf

1 trillion is the most commonly cited figure with the other being some 780 bil

They could not give any stronger guarantee than those which have been given by past governments, including the one given by Mazowiecki.Because there is no better guarantee according to international law than several treaties signed by successive governments that confirm each other. Mind you this was done by the insistance of the Mazowiecki government, who insisted that the treaties of 1990/91 confirmed previous treaties. Which is why the German-Polish border treaty is phrased almost identical to the treaty of Zgorzelec.


Greece received 169m€.

Yes - and based on your logic the Iraqis of 2083 will have an excellent case for reparations against the US, UK, Poles and a few others for this illegal invasion.

We can indeed circle back in a year to check your prediction that US luxury car buyers will be funding German reparations to Poland via a tariff on Porsches. As I remember tariffs was also the idea for collecting the money for the stupid Mexico wall ?

You do realise that when tariffs are imposed the other side normally responds ?

@Tacitus

160 mil marks in 1960 which would be several billion today if going by a standard 3.5% compound over 50 years

@cms
Of course but Germany is a fraction of the US's might. Us exports to Germany are rather small. We could easily win an auto trade war with Germany. Plus all the hicks working for the auto union would love it BC it'd help sell american cars. Again this is just one of many scenarios and I only use this as a very simplistic example. More than likely it won't escalate to a trade war. H

Right now 1k poles mainly legal experts are working on this case. These people have far more knowledge about international law, esp as a group, than any one of us do. Other participants include parliament, pis, historians within Poland. You have easily 2k people working on this directly and mostly full time plus several thousand more indirectly like myself. Gradually this is making its way to the Polonia esp in the us where we will use our connections and lobbies to help our countrymen across the Atlantic. I am just one cog in the wheel so of course I can't say what pis leadership will or won't do. I can tell you were on the offensive and Germany is on the defensive. So far things are looking up in our favor as the lawyers examine more and more documents, precedents, treaties, war records and so on. If this situation means that much to you go tell the Germans you want to volunteer and help them

I hope they're doing it as volunteers. If they're paid, they're paid from my taxes so in fact we're spending money-not making it.

You are poor at maths Dirk - the Greek compensation would be 1.2bn based on your high rate of interest - that is 600x less than the figure you are quoting for Polish compensation. Or even more if you allow for the fact it was in DEM

And Germany might have a fraction of US power when it comes to trade but it is a large fraction - German total exports are 92% of the US level of exports. It is the third biggest trader in the world and it is unlikely that even a nut job like Trump would enter into a trade war or trivial 3rd party reasons.

As for the 1000 lawyers working on this then they can use as a starting point the fact that there are treaties signed by both governments saying the matter is closed - I don't know what the other 999 will do but I'm sure they will be charging a lot of hours and taxi fares if they were anything like typical Warsaw lawyers.

Seriously, are there 1000 people paid to work on it? What are the costs?
Because that got me worried.

@kaprys

Yup just in Poland alone. The government isnt joking around about getting reparations from Germany. That's just the full time outside help. There's also PMs and higher level government members working on this.

@cms

Puppet governments controlled by USSR. When you sign a document under duress it is invalid. That's what the lawyers among other things will aim to prove. There's a million different ways the lawyers, which I'm assuming you are not (neither am I) can poke holes in this and establish a legal case. Then its up to Germany to defend their legal position. That's how court works were preparing our case as plaintiff, Germany as defendant. The meetings are an attempt to close this thing before it reaches the courts.

3.5% isn't interest its average annual inflation (for USD anyway).I haven't done the math but $1.3 bil sounds about right. Its proportionate to what they went through. Furthermore that's just one of the several concessions they received. S Korea i belibe received over $300 mil in the 50s along with low intest loans. The $700bil to $1 tril is just a starting figure. Even if the survivors and their families received a share of $1.3 bil that'd still be significant. Were fighting for them and for the damages Poland received as a country.

I still find it so shameful that people dont want a country who was invaded resulting in millions dead and the land totally destroyed to receive justice even if it was delayed - delayed as a result of said war an 5 decades of occupation. I bet if your own family members were killed raped or tortured you would want justice not some kumbaya reconciliation.

Well I gtg take care of a few things. Talk to u all later. I'll post back on monday.have a good and safe weekend everyone

So even if they're paid the minimal wage, the monthly cost is two million zł? With little chance of succeeding? Do you seriously think that should make me happy?

You are right if we talk about treaties signed under Civil law. However as pointed out to you several times, international law does consider this as an argument. And it certainly does not consider this as an argument when succesive governments acknowledge the treaty. Otherwise all peace treaties would be invalid. Political pressure is not an argument for declaring a treaty invalid.


That is not how international law works. Germany does not have to defend anything, Berlin will simply point to the existing treaties. It is up to Poland to prove that those treaties are somehow invalide, something that usually has a very slim chance of success I might add. Just to give you an example:

Germany and the Czech Republic currently disagree about the nature of the Munich agreement (and the aftereffect, when the president of the CSR had to agree to the dissolution of his country.). Both declared it as void, but for Berlin the Agreement was only nullified after it was broken by Hitler, whereas Prague considers it as void from the beginning. Yet Prague never went to court over it, even though we know that actual physical pressure was applied on the signatory party (the very ill Czech president had to wait for hours and was heavily pressured and close to a heart attack when he signed it), because - aside from the fact that it would be a needless provovation - as Czech lawyers have pointed out, it is far from clear that prague could win.

And mind you this treaty was never confirmed by succesive - including democratic - governments and we know that not only political pressure was involved. Treaties are almost never declared invalid without the approval of all signatories, especially after such a long time. Those are the facts.

@Dirk diggler: I'd suggest that you read a bit about international law before you continue this debate. You are right, none of us are (probably) lawyers, but there are certain fundamentals everybody can understand when read. And unfortunately, it seems that you either are oblivious of them or fail to acknowledge them. Otherwise you would know that your cited arguments ("puppet government" "against the will of the people") have no relevance here.

Remember, international law does not apply exlusively to democratic states, but is supposed to be applied to all countries in the world. Many of them are neither democratic nor completely independent (not that "independent" is really verifiable in this multilateral age).

Well, as far as I know none of the posters writing here has a direct influence or an expertise to talk about legal issues or to wage change of getting reparation by Poland from Germany.

We can only talk about it on two planes:
- moral
- historical
Historically there is no question about the fact Germany destroyed Poland more than any other country on Earth and didn't pay for it any money.

Morally it would be the right thing to do for Germans to pay up. They talk a lot about great change and moral responsibility and such, I would like t o see they put money where their mouth is. Talk is cheap.

By the way it is interesting to notice that amongst posters here all foreigners in one or other way connected to Poland are against Polish claims, few of them don't talk about it presumably they don't care one way or the other - and that I can understand. Why against? Why? Unless they are all Germans undercovers why? Showing their true colors?

What do you call between a fourth and a third of present day Poland?


So are you.... do you live here? pay taxes here?


three words, rule of law, Poland has de jure and de facto acceptecd the status quo, going back on that makes Poland look like a nation of shady characters out to squeeze what they can (so they won't have to work?) I don't want to live in a country full of people drooling at the idea of collecting haracz based on old grudges

Again, i'm fine with individuals pursuing action against the German government but Poland going after money is just cheap and tawdry and nasty

You don't need to be a lawyer to understand the basic principles of international law.


Even disregarding all the territoriy (and thus property) Germany lost to Poland, it is factually wrong to claim that Germany never paid any money. Germany paid bns e.g. via foundations.


Because it is obvious to any neutral observer that the Polish claims are unfounded and an attempt by the Polish government to get domestic support. Anyone who has access to any neutral media that actually covers the story in greater detail than e.g. the British yellow press could tell you as much.

Actually quite simple. At Postdam and Yalta, along with some other side meetings Europe was cut in half with Berlin the midpoint. Stalin got half, Churchill and FDR got the other. Most the Germans who settled during Nazis lands were kicked back to Germany save for a much smaller minority staying. If anything Churchill wanted to help Poland the most but everyone was sick of WW2 by then and wanted to rebuild. Then a new war was fought - the Cold War till the 90s with all its gulags prisons murders suppression one party system for the subjugated countries. Countries groups people continue to amend for those times. Like I said Germans, Japanese, other Axis powers all paid money. US and UK even helped Europe rebuild - including W Germany and did a de-Nazification program. Russia cant really be expected to do much as it doesn't even give much for benefits to its own soldiers (not that the US is a whole lot better but still..)

Why against reopening the issue ? Because long term reconciliation is better for peace and prosperity than short term money. Poland is now more prosperous and stable than ever before - not because of PiS or PO but through 28 years of work by its people and governments. The EU and NATO have been a strong part of this transition to a mature democracy and within those bodies Germany always a strong partner. Poland will gain little from replacing the UK as the most awkward member of the EU, in fact it will probably lose its status as the biggest voice of the 2004 countries.

If you live here rather than in Chicago you have more knowledge of how interconnected the economies now are and more at stake if It goes wrong. It would play into the hands of the worst elements of German society.

So none of the 1000 lawyers are looking at Russia because they can't be expected to do much ?

Of course there are no 1000 lawyers working on this (though I'm sure taxpayers will be billed for their services). The inevitable failure will be used to stir up more anti-German feeling. PiS cannot stand the idea of a Polish population that is not always angry at and afraid of its neighbors so all their international efforts are aimed at sewing discord and digging up pasts that should be left behind.