Was Prussia mostly German?

Was Prussia ever mostly German or was it just a German ruling class eg Teutonic knights ruling over Balts, Poles and others(Tartars, Jews etc)?

Depend when! What stage in history you have in mind.

So, they weren't mostly German...or?

No!

Depends when where and who. And even then, not so simple.

true, however it was clearly, closely associated with what is now Germany since the 13th century. .

Culturally very much so. The ethnic Prussians who were neither Germans or Poles are often forgotten and suffered after the war due to being Germanised.

I think the same goes for the Mazurians.

Ive read quite a few books, its quite complicated so you would have to do the same, from what I gather condensed into a short paragraph, I would say initially it was inhabited by us Baltic tribes collectively known as Prussians.

Poland had little success in trying to subdue Prussia, so the Teutonic Knights were offered the land if they could conquer it, which they did.

What was left of the Old Prussians were Germanised and assimilated into the German culture, they were joined by German immigrants who turned the wild marshlands into a more arable landscape.

Even the German Prussians themselves didn't like their Teutonic overlords and allied themselves with the King of Poland to overthrow the Teutonic Knights, Prussia therefore became part of the Polish Commonwealth, pledging allegiance to the King of Poland, but maintaining its own German Laws and Governance.

The Jews arrived somewhat later being offered a place of refuge at a time when other countries like England were more hostile to them.
At this stage, Prussia also allowed a lot of the lower class Polish to live there as these Peasants found they where given greater rights by the Prussians, than by the Polish upper classes who treated the lower classes quite badly at this time.

So it was always a Germanic country following the initial ethnic cleansing by the Teutonic Knights, but gradually gained a more diverse collection of peoples, even so, it still had a greater percentage of Germans than Polish up until the Treaty of Versailles following which the Polish drove out the German speaking peoples regardless of wither they were ethnic Germans, Baltic's or even German assimilated Polish.

This is more a potted history of West Prussia than East Prussia which I gather was even more German.

You forget that Teutonic order overtook land which belonged to the Polish Crown - namely Gdansk and area!
French Huguenots played their role in history of Prussia.


See your sentence is meaningless! Germanic country because of Germanic elite, nobody bothered about peasants - anywhere. Only XIX century make Germans from peasants.Most of them anyway.


Are you talking about Royal Prussia or what?

I did allude to such when I posted that the Tuetonic knights were offered the land, but maybe you can answer a question I have been unable to find an answer for.

When the Teetonic Knights invaded Prussia, they didnt find Poles but Old Prussians, a pagan peoples speaking thier own laungauge, the Polish Crown had been unable to conquer these people so what on earth gives Poland the right to claim its thier land, part of Poland, when there were allready another peoples living there who hadnt been conquered.

Please explain how Prussia could have been legitimately concidered to belong to the Polish Crown, surely it belonged to the original Prussians whom the Knights stole it from?

Well they invaded lands which belonged to Poles i.e. everything west of the river Wisła, including Gdansk.(see map).
And they were holding those land along with land which they took from OLD Prussians. After about 150 years, civil population under the rule of Teutonic Order rebelled and asked to be part of the Polish Kingdom. In ensuing war only so called Royal Prussia become province of the Crown(see map) - old Polish lands. Also Ermland become part of the Polish Kingdom but as province governed by Bishop.

Teutonic Order remained in the area around Königsberg.
After about 70 years the head of the order Albrecht Hohenzollern changed along with other knights religion. They become Protestants and he become Duke of Prussia. To do that he asked for protection of the Polish King and his uncle.

Thanks to protection of the Polish King the first in history Protestant state was born!
the Duke of Prussia made tribute and swore allegiance to King Sigismund I the Old in the Kraków's market square on 10 April 1525.



He was granted a place in the Senate of the Polish Kingdom,being a part of said Kingdom, however he wasn't interested.
Interesting thought that state which was born thanks to the Polish Kingdom worked hard in later times to destroy said Kingdom and was successful.


Is my answer good enough for you?

Ironside, I like Poles and Poland but we both know, Prussia wasn't originally Polish.

What do you have in mind when you say Prussia?

Rather than not being good enough, I would say not complete enough in that is hasnt fully answered my question, Iam familiar with the Post Teutonic Knight invasion history which your report is in complete harmony with what I have already learnt, I also understand what you are saying about the Old Prussians being East of the Vistula.

However, I still have not learnt a satisfactory answer as to the claim the Polish Crown makes on West Prussia.

I read that in ancient times it was originally inhabited by German Tribes who moved further West into what is now Germany, Slavic Tribes took their place but towards the end of the 7th century, Pagan German tribes retook West Prussia and were also known as "Prussian" tribes, As I understand the first King of Poland and indeed the very establishment of Poland came later in 966, I still fail to see a valid claim by the Polish Crown that the land was indeed theirs, had Poland retaken West Prussia again before renouncing claims to the country and ceding it to the Teutonic Knights in 1343 in the Kalisz Treaty?

Doubtless there is a historical action that grants West Prussia to Poland prior to the Teutonic Knights acquisition, its just that I cannot find it.

Thank you for your help.

I hope that answers your question if not let me know.

The first written record thought to refer to Gdansk (Danzig) is the vita of Saint Adalbert. Written in 999, it describes how in 997 Saint Adalbert of Prague baptized the inhabitants of urbs Gyddannyzc, "which separated the great realm of the duke [i.e. Boleslaw the Brave of Poland] from the sea

not quite

In 78 A.D. Plinius mentions the River Vistula as a German River, whereas Tacitus cites settlements of Germanic Goth at the mouth of that River Vistula.

By the name? anyway Goths were migrating everywhere, we cannot say hey it was Got-land because few squatters took a crap there.

but what we can say is that they were there first.

Other old historical documents already dated 78 b.c. from Plinius (lexicographer at that time) mention human settlements from Germans along the Vistula River - Wisla (Weichsel) near Gdansk. Plinus encyclopedia in 37 volumes prove this area along the Vistula river (Wisla)to be part of the former German empire (Magnia Germania).

ihsglobalinsight.com/Highlight/HighlightDetail7806.htm

In the time of Plinius distances were bigger, they also believed that if you go far enough you can encounter one eyed monsters, Also idea of empire for tribes in the northern part of Europe at the time was an alien concept,something hated Rome would come up with. He wasn't been able to understand social stratification and reality there and a loose confederation of tribes named empire. German? Germanic would be correct name for all those tribes at the time.

There were not enough people to form any empire.
Anyway it was 1000 years before Gdansk foundation, should Italian state have any claims to Istanbul because of Rome?
I don't doubt that at the time of Plinius there were Goths camping there but they have left no permanent settlements and definitely not any towns or cities latter renamed Gdansk, Gdansk was founded on virgin territory by Polish rulers. Goths picked up sticks and moved everywhere else 600 years earlier;

All that is bedside the point, when in 1308 Teutonic Order traitorously garbed Gdansk it was for all proposes and ethnically Polish settlement.

the only problem with is that if we dismiss Plinius, we have to also dismiss Socrates, Plato etc. etc. I'm not telling you what to believe, all I'm saying is that there are documents providing different information from what you know and accept,. that's all.

Does that have the slightest impact on what the status quo should be today any more than:


?


He is about as reliable as we can expect to find from that period and all evidence suggests that Slavic culture was further East.

Not dismiss, you just ought to know-whats what:)


proving what exactingly? Did you read my post ?


Not I'm not arguing status quo!

In this thread we are debating :


See some people do not realize that Prussia of Teutonic Order consisted not only from lands taken from OLD Prussians but also from land taken form the Polish Crown.

It's perhaps worth defining Prussia - a vast area at its widest definition.

yes, you basically said that we can't trust Plinius because "In the time of Plinius distances were bigger, they also believed that if you go far enough you can encounter one eyed monsters" and that's why I replied the way I did.

I though that I have made some valid point here:


Not to mention rest of my post.:)
Are you a uni graduate?


yep!

Look Ironside, you accept this - "The first written record thought to refer to Gdansk (Danzig) is the vita of Saint Adalbert. Written in 999, it describes how in 997 Saint Adalbert of Prague baptized the inhabitants of urbs Gyddannyzc, "which separated the great realm of the duke [i.e. Boleslaw the Brave of Poland] from the sea"

but you don't accept that - " Other old historical documents already dated 78 b.c. from Plinius (lexicographer at that time) mention human settlements from Germans along the Vistula River - Wisla (Weichsel) near Gdansk. Plinus encyclopedia in 37 volumes prove this area along the Vistula river (Wisla)to be part of the former German empire (Magnia Germania)."

What makes your post more credible than mine? I'll tell you what it is, one confirms what you've learned at school and what you want to believe and the other does not.

maybe I should ask you the same question as you asked me, huh? ;-)

look 4freigner I don't want to offend you but I accept both, you seems not to see a difference between those texts or/and you think that "your" text is somehow response to "mine" text, maybe you feel that you contradict meaning of the text I quoted. NO!You are wrong on all counts.

I have been trying to be nice to you and to explain to you what whats - shortly because an poorly because it is only forum and I have problem with my sinuses at this time of a year.

If I have would wanted to be nasty or to show off - I would just type - So what?
Maybe I have to anyway because you are not getting my point!
So what that Plinius wrote something about Goths settlements along Wisla roughly 1000 years before Gdansk was founded?


Sorry I didn't meant offend you! But If you ask me?:)
You don't know what your are talking about - sorry!

Mazurians were originally from Mazowsze (sp?). They were Polish/Slavic ethnically, but culturally aligned with German/Protestant culture, whereas Wrmia was predominantly Catholic. It was one of the things the League of Nations misunderstood when they called the plebiscites after WW1. Although Mazurians may have been Slavic, they considered themselves more German.


Well, most (if nnot all) of East Prussia was still German until 1945. Even today there are some German speakers (both Polish and German). I don't think the driving out really happened much until after WW2.

Not in East Prussia certainly, but West Prussia was given to Poland after the Treaty of Versailles and they certainly drove the German speaking peoples out. A good book that looks at this is amazon.com/Orphans-Versailles-Germans-Western-1918-1939/dp/ 0813118034/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355272678&sr=1-1&keywords=orphans+of+versailles

Both separate branches of my Grandparents were driven out of West Prussia by the Polish before the second world war.