Good points, sascha. It is kind of nice to see people with good grades fall flat on their face as they had only learned how to learn and not taught themselves how to get ahead in the job market. Competition is all well and good but what does it really mean when universities and workplaces are not talking to each other regarding current needs?
Dumbing-down in Polish schools and the Matura
At the end of the university you get Fachidioten, who have knowledge of their specific field but lack a wider basis. That's everywhere besides in the anglo world a handicap.
I don't think so.The Americans seem rather good in knowing what is useful and what not in real life.They really guide you correctly to have a sense of what is extremely important,less important,not very important and not important at all to know.In european system you have to learn everything by heart as if it everything were of same importance and in this way they hinder the educational process that is they suppose that the theoretical basis you get will be useful if you have the ability to transform it into practice but not all people are able to do that.
I mean that in german system for example there is clear distinction between theory(Theorie) and practice(Praxis) but in the anglosaxonic system they try to mingle theory and practice into a whole where theory is directly applied.So in this sense US system is very useful for the average student while the german system favors the begabten,the geschickt the ones who already have natural practical capabilities.
Maaarysia
15 May 2011 / #93
Matura has now become a measure of whether you finished school,
What do you mean? You don't have to take this exam. It's not obligatory, yet you graduate the school.
I'm a huge supporter of expanding the Matura so that it offers a wide range of subjects - and the subjects chosen and the grade should determine whether you go to university, not the certificate itself.
Actually they do determine. Depending on major you're applying, you should show matura of certain subjects (major in biology: Matura in Biology + Matura in Chemistry/Geography/Maths + Matura in foreighn language)
For instance - why shouldn't all the vocational school qualifications come under the Matura?
There are separate exam for technik title if I recall well. As for the vocational subjects - vocational school diploma in Poland doesn't allow to continue education on higher education level. If someone wants to study, such person need apply to liceum uzupełniające then he can take matura exam.
Stuff like car repairing would be useless for university entry, but it would also allow employers to see that a minimum level of qualification has been obtained.
Have you heard about such type of school like technikum? It already exists. It always existed. It's just that, those types of school which offer/include vocational education are not popular anymore.
Mind you, I got a shock recently after discovering that to study English, all you need is English and Polish from the Matura - nothing else is taken into account!
It really depends on University. I remember that few years ago if someone wanted to study philology such person needed to take an exam of two foreign languages.
Albanian philology, for instance? Does Poland really need more than about 10 graduates from that subject a year?
Are there more than 10 graduates from Albanian philology
The best example I've ever seen was a very tough exam, set over a 24 hour period - students had to go away and write it. They could collaborate and so on - but the point was that the subject was definitely a difficult one, and it had to be researched and cited thoroughly. There was also nothing to be gained by cheating - because they were questioned about the content after the e
That's intresting. Could you give more details what kind of exam and where it was taken?
The lack of hours is really a travesty - I can only assume that there are powerful forces saying "no" to introducing real full time work for teachers.
Actually I think that they have more hours than lessons. I heard there are special hours for checking homework and tests assigned but teachers instead of doing that in schools (they should do it at schools) they take all those things to check to home.
I can only assume that there are powerful forces saying "no" to introducing real full time work for teachers
The trady union of teachers for instance? ;)
The languages are set up so that it's virtually impossible to get a high grade without private lessons
It is possible but it demands real self-study at home. Actually no lessons helped me to learn any foreign language. Just learning voculabry on my own at home... ok maybe besides English lessons at high school which were quite well taught. It all depends on teacher.
15 hours a week in school?!
They teach in other schools too. But the real problem is their mindsets which is kind of a clerk's mindset: do your job, go home. In whole my life I met only several techers who were really passionate about teaching. Most of the teachers are people who are completely burn out.
Medicine is open to anyone at a public university in English, as long as you've got the money to pay.
Really?
In Poland only those gifted are able to pass the medical unis exams (they have separate exams) and to survive there one must be really hard working. About of a half year is dropping out after the 1st year and I'm not kidding! I know people who study medicine and I feel real respect to them.
It seems to me that you don`t know exactly the rules of Maturity exam in polish educational system
I know that probably better than you because I was actually taking New Matura exam, while you was taking yours something about 30 years ago... Today matura would be a piece of cake for your generation.
But do you think that polish system is different from any other county?
I think it's the international trend to lower educational levels.
So try to score 90% in chemistry , physics and biology .
I agree, it is hard. But note how many people get 40% from their matura exams and are graduating state universities from some dodgy majors.
There are other educational institutions or some deficit faculties in public system , you can get into with bad scores , but not the ones which can support you in decent living.
Exactly. And that's waisting of public money. That's why I think MEN should do something with it e.g. by changing the minimum passing score or getting rid of basic levels of the exams.
Who said that it is only school which is responsible for your level of scores .
Actually no one was saying that. It's just that Goverment "invests" huge amount of money in people who won't return the "investition". Your claim would fit in a system where everyone pays for his/her education of his/her own.
Please please please, don't make the mistake of shunning pupils too early.
They have as many chances as they want. You can take matura exam twice a year and improve your scores as many times as you want.
I spent 1 semester at a us university and was honestly shocked when asking the students in their final year sth from my basic studies and them not being able to answer that and that was not sth for censoring...
The thing also is the guiding, making of their students sth completely dependent and not what a later boss would like them to be.
Yes, i agree the european studies at least some of them have a good amount of 'by heart learning', but the combination of that basis and the later 'practical' experience has to me huge advantage in relation to the us way. For me what you call 'transformation' was not a difficult task, 'cause at that point praxis is coming in and that makes it a round thing to me.
Someone has to be favour ;), just joking, but the practical part in ingenieurs- oder geisteswissenschaften in germany is really a big part. germans like to be practical. ;)
Some of my friends in gymnasium spent 1 year in us in highschool and got mostly As, but when they came back to germany almost all of them repeated the year when they left. is that quality?
while being introduced in that class, those students showed not having much idea about what is going on in europe while asking about a hitler, electricity etc. that was scary. ;)
The thing also is the guiding, making of their students sth completely dependent and not what a later boss would like them to be.
Yes, i agree the european studies at least some of them have a good amount of 'by heart learning', but the combination of that basis and the later 'practical' experience has to me huge advantage in relation to the us way. For me what you call 'transformation' was not a difficult task, 'cause at that point praxis is coming in and that makes it a round thing to me.
german system favors the begabten,the geschickt the ones who already have natural practical capabilities.
Someone has to be favour ;), just joking, but the practical part in ingenieurs- oder geisteswissenschaften in germany is really a big part. germans like to be practical. ;)
Some of my friends in gymnasium spent 1 year in us in highschool and got mostly As, but when they came back to germany almost all of them repeated the year when they left. is that quality?
US system is very useful for the average student
while being introduced in that class, those students showed not having much idea about what is going on in europe while asking about a hitler, electricity etc. that was scary. ;)
Really, Maaarysia? We have resits in Scotland and you have to wait til the next year to do it (I know as I failed one subject in year 5). My group was a bunch of buffoons who distracted me no end so I had to repeat it.
delphiandomine 86 | 17823
15 May 2011 / #96
(in a hurry, don't have time to reply properly - sorry!)
If you're ever in Poznan, give me a shout and I'll take you to see the American students at the medical university here. Most of them are an utter joke - they have compulsory Polish classes that they pass despite most of them knowing nothing, I know several doctors who give them pass grades just to keep them quiet.
The fees are a shade over 50k PLN a year.
The same doctors have told me about the standards applied to the Polish students - and as you say, it's very, very tough. One student of mine (who teaches the Americans - which tells you all you need to know ;)) told me that roughly, a 5 for the Americans would be equal to a 3 (just) for the Poles.
If you're ever in Poznan, give me a shout and I'll take you to see the American students at the medical university here. Most of them are an utter joke - they have compulsory Polish classes that they pass despite most of them knowing nothing, I know several doctors who give them pass grades just to keep them quiet.
The fees are a shade over 50k PLN a year.
The same doctors have told me about the standards applied to the Polish students - and as you say, it's very, very tough. One student of mine (who teaches the Americans - which tells you all you need to know ;)) told me that roughly, a 5 for the Americans would be equal to a 3 (just) for the Poles.
I mean that in german system for example there is clear distinction between theory(Theorie) and practice(Praxis)
Behind those educational systems if i can recall correctly are two different old ideas.
Theory of formal discipline and transfer of knowledge is based on the idea that training in basic mental faculties like logic, memory, Latin language.. will result in spreading of capabilities and transfer of knowledge (that seems like continental European heritage)- from Theory to practice
On the other side are Associationist and Connectioists theories from behaviorists and Thorndike that insisted on learning specific skills firstly, made of basic skills, with the expectancy that vertical transfer from part to whole will occur. (that seems to me to be more present in US)- the opposite direction
I don't know anything about pedagogy, so those who teach here will correct me if I'm wrong. And I just have that vague impression that I am wrong :)
Monia
15 May 2011 / #98
I know that probably better than you because I was actually taking New Matura exam, while you was taking yours something about 30 years ago... Today matura would be a piece of cake for your generation.
Hey , how do you know all that stuff , 30 years ago I was a small girl , but you know better .
Maaarysia
15 May 2011 / #99
American students at the medical university here.
Courses for foreigner are different. They are much easier than the courses for Polish students.
One student of mine (who teaches the Americans - which tells you all you need to know ;)) told me that roughly, a 5 for the Americans would be equal to a 3 (just) for the Poles.
Yeah, that's also what I heard from my sources.
But the Unis have to take money out of somewhere and foreigners are a good way to make ends meet.
Hey , how do you know all that stuff , 30 years ago I was a small girl , but you know better .
Ok I'm sorry. I just took you for a mature person. But you're certainly much older than me.
The Americans have an interesting system.From european point of view they may seem illiterate because we take some history and geography knowledge for granted but their education has practical applications which ours lacks.I also believe that Germans are stingy with the grades it is not in their interest that the student feels good or whatever.They are also very strict and tend not to do favors.
Monia
15 May 2011 / #101
Standarized for USA and Canada !!!!!!!!!!! This all I know very good , you know my husband is a doctor who has gone through that system , postgraduate , , so don`t tell me anything coz you are wrong .
delphiandomine 86 | 17823
15 May 2011 / #102
Courses for foreigner are different. They are much easier than the courses for Polish students.
Much, much easier. It's not just the medical university - same nonsense goes on with many other institutions here.
It makes me sick :(
But the Unis have to take money out of somewhere and foreigners are a good way to make ends meet.
It's easy money really - the teachers don't get extra money for teaching it as well.
The worst thing with the American students is that they actually completely fail to integrate. Compare this to the Chinese (I was at one of their parties last night, actually) - who seem to embrace Poland and who are quite happy to learn the language. I even met one who was working as an assistant professor part time here!
Monia
15 May 2011 / #103
Degrees but don't know of any maturity exams.
Why are you trying to move everythiung now into your english reality . We are talking about Poland and as I have said before we don`t have A- exams here , but even though I didn`t take such exam I can comprehend what it means . Sorry pal that you can`t .
... lol.
Quality comment.
I also believe that Germans are stingy with the grades it is not in their interest that the student feels good or whatever.They are also very strict and tend not to do favors.
During my time at university it was like that. Maybe harsh, but it did not bother/harm me at all. When i see that softy system now i really have a problem to acknowledge those generation as academics even though they'll have a degree just by knowing what selection or better no selection is behind it.
Pinching Pete - | 554
15 May 2011 / #105
Quality comment.
Thx.. compared with your standard bluster and derision I think so too. Anything good in Pravda today?
Monia, yes, we are talking about Poland hence I have been talking about the Polish Matura. Wow, 10/10 for observation, LOL My English reality? I'm Scottish and have been talking about Highers (Revised). I'd never hire your services as a lawyer as you can't argue well and don't pay attention.
Here? I thought you were in Canada. Please make your mind up.
I can comprehend what it means as I took the time to teach some Matura material. I asked about a maturity/mature exam but everyone just shrugged their shoulders. Ah, Matura, ok :) :)
I know more about A-levels than you do too as I'm in education :) :)
Here? I thought you were in Canada. Please make your mind up.
I can comprehend what it means as I took the time to teach some Matura material. I asked about a maturity/mature exam but everyone just shrugged their shoulders. Ah, Matura, ok :) :)
I know more about A-levels than you do too as I'm in education :) :)
Thx.. compared with your standard bluster and derision I think so too.
Dude, better that than your crappp. No offense, just truth.
Anything good in Pravda today?
Read the FAZ today. Pravda never held in my hands, moron.
Pinching Pete - | 554
16 May 2011 / #108
No offense, just truth.
Pravda never held in my hands, moron.
.. yeah whatever you say, slick. We're all knuckle draggers compared to you, I'm certain of it.
Monia
16 May 2011 / #109
I've never heard any native speaker of any kind of English call it anything but Matura (often with a Polish 'r') in Poland.
I have never heard about A level exams so what ? Have you ever heard about matura exam in English. You know sometimes you need to sue your brain to comprehend things . Does A level means anything for anyone outside of the english world ? No. Does it say that it is a school test .No . Why do you expect then that we in Poland bother to have standardised with English etymology in naming school exams .
If you want to translate use native language phraseology,and then translate and please don`t argue , you are wrong ( Seanus and other guys ) .
You don't need to have heard of them. If you wanted to know, you could find out. Simple?
Matura is one exam? ;) ;)
A-levels are for the English so they focus on them. Matura is for Poles so they focus on that. Simple?
Sascha mentioned it, Monia. I don't expect you to know about the Bologna process and the equivalence of qualifications.
We DON'T want to translate, get it????? You have Matura and we have another set of exams. You should really be banned for spamming and flooding, Monia. You have no point!
You don't want to standardise, then fine. Don't refer to Matura as mature/maturity then. Simple??
Don't take a Polish construct and have the audacity to just assume native speakers will understand your maturity translation. Don't make a village, Monia ;) ;) ;) ROTFL
Matura is one exam? ;) ;)
A-levels are for the English so they focus on them. Matura is for Poles so they focus on that. Simple?
Sascha mentioned it, Monia. I don't expect you to know about the Bologna process and the equivalence of qualifications.
We DON'T want to translate, get it????? You have Matura and we have another set of exams. You should really be banned for spamming and flooding, Monia. You have no point!
You don't want to standardise, then fine. Don't refer to Matura as mature/maturity then. Simple??
Don't take a Polish construct and have the audacity to just assume native speakers will understand your maturity translation. Don't make a village, Monia ;) ;) ;) ROTFL
Monia
16 May 2011 / #111
I'd never hire your services as a lawyer as you can't argue well and don't pay attention.
You wouldn`t be able to afford my services , darling . I am too expensive for you . You start talking personal stuff which means nothing less than you lack reasonable arguments .
I don`t live in Canada , but in Poland , my dear read with understanding please . Good luck in your educational achievements :)
I don't need your services anyway as I have my own Polish lawyer :) :)
My education is as I posted. What luck do I need to have when I got my quals in Nov 2000? None!
You still don't have a point at all. Give me your central point and I'll refute it in another way as I have 20 times already. You are talking with a champion mooter who finds people like you barely a warm-up.
Oh, I read your post alright. No 56 where you said "I have been living in Canada for some time". So, who's the liar now???
My education is as I posted. What luck do I need to have when I got my quals in Nov 2000? None!
You still don't have a point at all. Give me your central point and I'll refute it in another way as I have 20 times already. You are talking with a champion mooter who finds people like you barely a warm-up.
Oh, I read your post alright. No 56 where you said "I have been living in Canada for some time". So, who's the liar now???
You wouldn`t be able to afford my services , darling . I am too expensive for you .
Really? In the polish section you came across as a raving idiotic teenager.
Also Seanus is right you're horrible at arguing and completely unable to put across a coherent sentence.
Monia
16 May 2011 / #114
But I like passionate discussion without offencive stuff of course . I can understand someones arguments if they are reasonably merging with mine :)
Then discuss ;) ;)
So far, all you've done is make the mules/donkeys look good and agreeable ;) They are grateful to you for that :)
So far, all you've done is make the mules/donkeys look good and agreeable ;) They are grateful to you for that :)
I don't expect you to know about the Bologna process and the equivalence of qualifications.
Well, I do know a lot about those. The standard industry practice is to translate literally any educational terms used instead of replacing them with the nearest foreign-language equivalent. "Matura" is a colloquial term and does not appear on any official documentation. Even "świadectwo maturalne / egzamin maturalny", though they sounds quite formal, are not actually used on certificates. The only terms officially used are "świadectwo dojrzałości"/"egzamin dojrzałości". Therefore, the translator should use the term "maturity certificate / maturity examination", and is free to add a footnote with a short description of what the term signifies within the Polish educational system. BTW "maturity certificate / maturity examination" are terms officially used in all Polish-language EU documentation on the subject.
Glad to see an opinion of a professional.
That colloquial term is thus used in admission requirements of some UK/US/Canadian universities for the consumption of Poles, who understand the word "matura". That proves nothing in regards to non-Poles' understanding of the word. Americans, Brits and Canadians have no need to understand it because the requirement does not apply to them.
"Matura" is a colloquial term and does not appear on any official documentation.
That colloquial term is thus used in admission requirements of some UK/US/Canadian universities for the consumption of Poles, who understand the word "matura". That proves nothing in regards to non-Poles' understanding of the word. Americans, Brits and Canadians have no need to understand it because the requirement does not apply to them.
Monia
16 May 2011 / #118
BTW "maturity certificate / maturity examination" are terms officially used in all Polish-language EU documentation on the subject.
Thanks Magdalena for informing some people here about the facts . Maybe they will now understand their pointless discussion and maybe some say sorry for unnecessary comments .
GUYS - IS IT SO HARD TO ADMIT A MISTAKE ?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1366
16 May 2011 / #119
Much, much easier. It's not just the medical university - same nonsense goes on with many other institutions here.
It makes me sick :(
It makes me sick :(
The same system applies here in Auss,for instance with Chinese students who are barely literate in the English language, yet in the end they all pass and the Uni takes its slice, it is very common.
As I've shown before, the Polish Matura is the term that is used in official circles (Edinburgh University). Look at the thread title, it has been corrected but do you see any mention of any maturity exam? I don't! You can describe the logic of it by saying that 'WE in Poland see it as a maturity exam whereby the pupil is seen to have come of age'. Then it would tie in with your footnote idea. However, as it stands, it's widely known as the Matura which is a Polish construct.
asie.unimelb.edu.au/poland/hegenpoland.html, 'the matura'
ucb.ac.uk/international-students/country/poland/home.aspx, it gives the Polish language words, then the neutral Matura as its translation
So, to be clear, Matura is a word used in the Polish educational system to denote a leaving exam. It's underpinning rationale/logic is one which seeks to examine the coming of age of a student to test their readiness for tertiary level education. In Britain, where the main language is English, we say Highers or A-levels. We don't refer to the maturity of the candidate in question as maturity can be judged in so many ways in so many contexts. proz.com/kudoz/polish_to_english/education_pedagogy/1138011-matura.html
a native speaker of Polish in Education
https://polishforums.com/uk-ireland/british-equivalents-matura-results-44821/ Justysia was happy with what I wrote and rightly so.
The bottom line is that we have other terms and the Polish Matura would need to be presented in such a way that it would be understandable to educational institutes. End of story! Don't translate your constructs (nie rób wiochy, np) into our language. Use our terminology if you want to use our language. Don't make a village, ROTFL.
asie.unimelb.edu.au/poland/hegenpoland.html, 'the matura'
ucb.ac.uk/international-students/country/poland/home.aspx, it gives the Polish language words, then the neutral Matura as its translation
So, to be clear, Matura is a word used in the Polish educational system to denote a leaving exam. It's underpinning rationale/logic is one which seeks to examine the coming of age of a student to test their readiness for tertiary level education. In Britain, where the main language is English, we say Highers or A-levels. We don't refer to the maturity of the candidate in question as maturity can be judged in so many ways in so many contexts. proz.com/kudoz/polish_to_english/education_pedagogy/1138011-matura.html
a native speaker of Polish in Education
https://polishforums.com/uk-ireland/british-equivalents-matura-results-44821/ Justysia was happy with what I wrote and rightly so.
The bottom line is that we have other terms and the Polish Matura would need to be presented in such a way that it would be understandable to educational institutes. End of story! Don't translate your constructs (nie rób wiochy, np) into our language. Use our terminology if you want to use our language. Don't make a village, ROTFL.