Dumbing-down in Polish schools and the Matura

Educational institutions can deal with Polish Matura exam or even 'maturity exam' as bureaucratic literal translations of the kind needed for admission or transfer credit decisions (though 'maturity exam' is a horrible sounding collocation). In everyday usage with educated native speakers of english neither is advised. (I use matura in English with people who know what it is, with people who don't know what it is I say something like 'high school graduation exam' maybe adding that's something like the French Le Bac or German Abitur if I think they might know what those are. "High school leaving exam" is kind of bland but alright in international English maybe (though again Americans who have no such exam might still be puzzled.

Exactly, mafketis. It needs some kind of description for native speakers who are unfamiliar with what it is. Maturity exam would be out of respect for the logic of their system but not because that's what it's referred to in our system.

There is a little problem.
You (and other anglo expats) stated that the correct English term is "Matura exam", now you are saying it's "Polish matura". Since "matura" is an exam then matura exam means what? "exam exam"?

Changing your stance now?


A few things here:
- "maturity exam" is a term used by the very universities you linked to, and then some. So the term is understandable if the certification is obtained by a Swiss or an Austrian, but if a Pole achieves a diploma that translates into the same "maturity exam" then it suddenly become incomprehensible to anglos? How does that work?

- the term "matura" on anglo sites has nothing to do with anglos being able to understand the term, as they are not the intended readers of those pages - they are for candidates with a Polish educational background.

- I agreed that "maturity" may carry a mening that is too wide for an anglo ear, but our mod, in his "fairness" moved to the dumpster.

- I asked a few of my friends at work what "matura" meant, and yes, one of them is Scottish (love her accent). None had even an approximate clue what matura would be. Some kind of Polish food? was one response. Out of 6 persons I asked, two thought it was some kind of a final exam at school.

- a professional translator posted her clear opinion and yet you know better :)


You said that before :)

Oh for goodness sake!
You vary the way you speak depending on who you're talking to. Silly point-scoring. I don't berate my older brother for referring to GCSEs as O levels, even though his son is taking them this year. 1% of Brits would understand "Arbitur" - no, I haven't conducted any surveys but you know what I mean ...

The Google translator knows it best. :-)
By submitting this


you will receive this perfect phrase:


Now I am starting to doubt whether Google actually uses any artificial translation software at all. I imagine a room full of hard working people - everyone with its opinion about what "matura" really means. It looks that my request have been processed by a francophone. :-)

buwiwm.edu.pl/publ/edu/index5.htm

Not at all. Matura is not particular to Poland as it is known elsewhere in Europe. So, 'the Polish Matura' singles out Poland. It is also the Matura exam but what YOU should be asking yourself is 'why is it used in the singular when native speakers pluralise?'. I took it as exam as it's egzamin in Polish and not egzaminy. We say Highers or A-Levels, true??

No, I've explained this already. It is out of respect for their system that some translate it to 'maturity exam'. Then it would be 'the Swiss Matura' or 'the Austrian Matura'. Is that so hard for you to understand??

Yes, a Polish educational background so why translate what the majority of Poles call the Matura into a term that is neither Polish nor English? Can't you see? A Polish person cannot turn round and say 'you guys say the maturity exam' as many here will testify that we don't. Poles understand Matura and it is up to the relevant educational institute to find out what that means. Not to have a bogus translation that moves it away from both.

Yes, it has a meaning that is too wide. Glad that you finally agree!

Which is why you translate it to secondary school leaving exam or high school exit exams (whatever they are called in the US or Canada).

Mafketis is a linguist and I'm a translator too. However, it's about knowing what we say and what we don't say. Anyway, look at Fedor's translator. Russians slate her for making mistake after mistake.

Face it, Darek, Matura is a construct that Poland has taken to mean 'maturity exam' but that we see as a leaving exam. Simple!

For fukcssake sheep, read the link provided by Magdalena. She's a professional translator and she does that stuff for a living and she's linking to the official site of Bureau for Academic Recognition and International Exchange which works hand in hand with EU.

I know it's hard to admit error, so no need that you do. The answer is a click away for all to see.

Once and for all, Darek, it is a Polish construct, not an English-language one. edu.pl, come on man, open your eyes. pl means Poland, not England or Scotland. It's all within the Polish system, we have different terms. Poles may see it as a form of maturation but we see it as a form of leaving or final secondary school exams. Fact!

You have already mentioned that your colleagues didn't understand Matura. That's why we say different things which don't square with the Polish logic. It's a different system. Read what Varsovian said above.

It may come to be that in the future, many will know what it is through constant exchange but, for now, the most common English language terms have to be used as this is a forum for users of English who should know that the Matura is a leaving exam done at the end of secondary school. It is for THEIR benefit, Darek.

Sascha & others,

If I compare the so-called 'Matura' (in Germany 'Abitur!) with a typical US comprehensive final exam, I must admit that yours puts ours hopelessly to shame, especially in math and science, yet to some degree in the humanities as well. I too have studied in Germany (though not in Poland) as a post-doc during the late 80's, and was practically stupified at the level of English among even my only slightly older East German colleagues. Apart from side-splitting accents however, they sounded a heck of a lot more intelligent in their second language than most of my often drugged out former grad school classmates sounded in their firstLOL

Also Tatsache rein u. schlicht, the US educational system is, to put it bluntly, in the crapper, save for a few elite Ivy League institutions, and even they are having trouble maintaining standards in various disciplines!

If I may add my comment to the general opinion about the level of maturity exam in Poland I have to say that in general, the difficulty of the exam depends on what type of a level you will choose .

There are two types : basic and extended levels . Only extended levels allows you to get into higher educational institutions . But it varies among universities which compulsory subjects in extended levels are needed to be admitted . Generally for medicine for example , you need to take an extended exam in biology and chemistry and basic in physics . The extended levels are difficult and the school program is not sufficient to acquire the knowledge which is required by extended version. So most students have to take additional courses or tutorial help to be prepared sufficiently to score above 90 - 100 % . Only a score close to 100 % guarantees the admission to medical university .

So , my conclusion is that , in general , school system in Poland will not prepare a student for further education . But similar situation exists everywhere in Europe or USA and Canada, so there is no need for criticising our system. No one has invented the perfect system so far .

I've heard that the Polish Matura/leaving exam is stern at the extended level too. In Poland in general the expectation level seems to be higher. In the private school I teach at, it's 75% just to pass the level. In Scotland, 70% and upwards is a first class pass at university.

If it is realistic that many have the skills and the teaching to pass, then fine. However, help through dumbing down and other ways might be helpful.

Frustrating thing about "Matura" is a "Key of answers" (I don't know how to translate into English). Sometimes you answers is good but doesn't have a word or phrase that is in "Key" and you recive 0 points. What is Frustrating that they make an exam in order to check our skills and they make mistakes in it (for example "Matura" from Polish this year has at least two mistakes).

nothing unusual there.


the teacher can use common sense when marking. some don't.

valid post though.

French, on the other hand, complain that the Bac is not watered down enough, indeed, that it's much too arcane and too theoretical, testing knowledge which is essentially worthless in today's market. I've heard similar laments about the German Abi-:)

Are they actually allowed to use common sense? I thought the Matura was marked very strictly in this respect - either it's in the Key or it's not.

most of my knowledge about this is from years ago when the Matura was thrown together.
if teachers can't consult each other for a given alternative then there is something very wrong.

i do remember a school here where most students got 6 in english. the head teacher came along, said a few things and the results were changed.

marking the essay is/was open to abuse. same for the oral.

i could tell u some real horror stories about the oral exam, but won't.

why not? please do.

So how would you check people's writing skills? Style, grammar etc?


Some of the toughest exams I took. They build character though.

first of all.
as i understand things the modern exam doesn't show a name at the top of the paper and the paper is marked by a teacher other than the pupils class teacher.

off the top of my head. i might ask questions about writing/grammar in the oral exam. i'd also make the written task longer.

written exams give a choice of three or four topics. to check vocabulary/grammar etc i'd have to take into consideration course work.

Internet is good because you can expose the dumbness of the others and they cannot take back what they have written.I decided to use recorder sometimes for fun and rub some conversations with sh1tters on their faces.

As far as I know, they can't - it's to avoid any potential abuse. So many papers are double checked, so the marker has to follow the Key at all times. It's the exact same as in the UK system.


Yep, the papers are all marked together, in one location over the course of a weekend or so. There's pretty much no opportunity for teachers to influence the results - they're all anonymous. The old system on the other hand....despite the comments about the New Matura being far easier - it's certain that they're not rigged, unlike the old system which was wide open for abuse.

Oral exams in Poland are still routinely abused though.

I can relate to this coz something similar happened to my mate in 2009 when he was completing his PHD in new technologies.His thesis was about new technologies in Diesel engines he came up with very good points he had discovered coz he already had more than 15years under his belt working in the automotive industry. The old professors at the University in Rzeszów told him that his ideas were not applicable in the Polish Industries. Sort of tried to make him write something they had taught him from their own books and these are people who have been teaching for so many donkey years and have written many books but have never done any meaningful practical work.What a farce..

Yesterday, I went to a private high school to run an oral matura exam for 4 students. They all failed because, despite having had Russian on their curriculum for 3 years, they decided to take English. And it ended with a complete disaster.

Today, I ran the exam in my state school. All students passed.

pawian, please tell us how the exam is conducted these days.

That explains your new BMW!

Nice wheels ;)

I have requested my student to bring past papers to our last session on Sat before her English part on Wed. She told me that even after one thorough tense review with me, she had learned more than most of the year with her Polish teacher. I know from extensive experience that there are some elements of the tenses that Polish teachers don't project so well. She is relatively confident about the speaking part so all should be well.

good job! did you take pictures???? ;D

i've found the same.

but the ins and outs are another subject.

That's impressive :) Can I ask how you learned to explain things? Through pure practice? Your own thoughts or books? I'm just wondering because I may have a job in a private language school soon and any advice would be appreciated