Dumbing-down in Polish schools and the Matura

One typical case in Poland is where the professor expects the students to repeat things straight from the book that he published on the subject - it's certainly not uncommon.

and talk about independant thought

I see similarities with Greece.But it is even worse if he expects words from his unwritten lectures.
Generally as a student in Greece I was largely disgusted by the unfairness of the exams.Some people studied for months with no sleep to get a base grade while some others passed with studying overnight due to connections.Political party played important role.Some proffessors asked for a list of students belonging to certain party to pass them.I saw people who were political chiefs passing 25-30 lessons in an exam period that is they passed all the exams of 5 years in just one(the last) and got degrees.

i'd say it's the rule.

and with it is a huge failure in the system.

Indeed :(

It's one reason why I'd only ever vote PO for tactical reasons and never as a free choice. I'm hugely passionate about education - and what PO are doing simply doesn't fit. The recent reform to make teachers work 2 extra hours "for free" was just bloody idiotic and badly thought out.

As far as I know only the Americans have invented a system that beats down memorizers.Memorizers are totally unbeatable there is no way one can prevail in an exam over a hardcore chinese or japanese student who are the biggest memorizers.Here in Greece memorizing has come to a high advanced level when I sat for the national exams I memorized 4 books of 500 pages each word by word.I wrote exactly the same sentences as they were in the book so there was no chance that anyone could get a better grade.

Of course in university the material is so huge that total memorizing of books word by word fails(due to human memory capacity) however you can do your bit of memorizing and it is always rewarding.In fact Americans use byzantine techniques for memorizing I was surprised.But they have developed a multiple choice and grading system that prevents heavy memorizers from getting the best grades.

Maybe some day I will explain how they manage this how they play out the memorizer and what he can do to beat the system.(although they forbid expansion of such information).

This year? I thought that matura was generally simplyfied since Nowa Matura was established!
Nowa Matura is a joke. Especially Polish Language part. It's almost impossible not to pass it for a person of regular intelligence... even without any preparation. I have no idea how was it when the "Stara" Matura was still obtaining but I guess it was more demanding (but still I know many people with "Stara" Matura who aren't very bright... so probably it wasn't so demanding as well)


Your problem, delphiandomine, is that you didn't go through that system so your knowledge is based only on slogans. I did, and I say that all that babble about "less knowledge, more thinking" is one big bs!

In fact there are always some questions which come into play in exams for example
1.Memorizing vs thinking
2.Easy vs difficult questions(how you standardize the level)
3.Time management etc
A memorizer will claim that he should get better grades because he studied more hours and knows more stuff,a critical thinker will claim he needs to be rewarded because he thinks better and real life is about giving solutions with given data.

One who wants difficult questions will say that difficult questions show who is really better and can respond to critical situations,the one who wants easy questions will say that in real life you get punished when you do wrong sth which is easy and not when you fail on sth that is considered above average or impossible.

The fast responder will claim that being fast and quick in answers is very important for real situations when you don't have time to think,the slow responder will claim that speed hinders communication with others and that real situations demand a steady constant flow and not fast outbursts.

So everyone is right and everyone is wrong.Then the exam fighter comes to the exam and analyzes to which extent it is actually influenced by the above mentioned thoughts and secondary thoughts.Because in an essence you have everyone opposite to you,it is like a trap so the point is to reverse the trap and trap the examiner.

But my knowledge is based on actually looking at what's happening - and while they moved away from the "facts, facts, facts" approach for exams, many teachers are still stuck in that way of teaching - not least because it's far easier to teach people facts than it is to teach them to think.

Unfortunately, while encouraging people to think is great - it's not so great when the whole system is rotten to the core. Changing the exam questions isn't going to achieve anything - a wholescale reform, including removing a lot of the dead wood is the answer. Making children go to school at 6, changing questions, it all means nothing if the same old dinosaurs are writing the same old programmes.

Incidentally, despite the change, it seems to me that the heavy focus on dull tedious facts is still there.

I have to say that some of the posters here don`t understand the whole idea of today`s maturity exam .

There is no doubt about it that it is much tougher today to pass maturity exams than it was before ( when cheating was so widespread and common that almost imbeciles passed in math solving the toughest exercises and exams in Polish literature were so fake that most high school students were well equipped with ready made thesis ( it was just a matter of rewriting them on a school sheet .

So , please people be reasonable .

Today it is a test ( no chance of cheating ) . There is a minimum amount of points ( 15) for the weakest students , and the test is very diversified . It is very easy to score 15 points , but so tough to get 50. This year was very tough to score high. Remember that going to university you need at least 85% ( 45 points ) .

This year there was a case that a girl forgot to leave her cell phone before entering an exam premises , and there was a ring of a timer and she was expelled from the exams ( not only this one all of them ) . So please don`t talk baloney's .

Maturity is 'dojrzałość'. Matura is a 'leaving exam'.

Nah, I've only taught it, sorry ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matura enjoy :)

Funny, we don't call it Matura but A-levels or Revised Highers. We are not prepared to call people immature solely on the basis of not being gifted with the best brain ;) ;)

zso.pisz.pl/arch/matura/co_to.php

The translation into Polish language: pl.bab.la/slownik/angielski-polski/maturity

Yes but you are making the classic mistake of direct translation. We do NOT say 'mature exam' in English. Go and ask any native speaker you want, they will let you know.

Matura means maturity exam , as above definition given in my previous post . Maybe in other countries can mean something very different like leaving but of course in Poland it is maturity exam . Check the etymology of that word .

It is funny that some people sink in the subject and can`t admit their mistakes .

now, can i clean up the thread.

Monia has made a point

Seanus has made a point.

no more required, thank you.

That proves only that the word exists in some languages EXCEPT English.

Matter decided and closed (see posts 44 and 45. Incidentally, you support mine). Yes, it exists in Polish (end of).

Now, PLEASE discuss the thread, folks. Needless to say, Matura is a big deal for many here. The English part is very important and savvy parents are aware of this. I'm preparing a girl for her Matura exam in English which is on the 25th of this month. Her dad was a student of mine and asked me to teach her. It has allowed me to make comparisons with previous material and well-placed to comment. I don't think it has been as diluted as many would have us believe.

Monia or Darek, any teaching experiences to share with us which qualifies you to comment? Maybe from having gone through the Matura?

Seanus

Nothing supports your explanation . Post nr 46 explains that it is a common mistake of what you were just trying to prove

Matura should be a barrier for bad students to prevent them from higher education. Nowadays universities are willing to accept as many candidates as they can because they gain dotations for each students (about 10 000 - 30 000 PLN per year). Also the private universities want the Matura Exam to be easy so then they have candidates.

The biggest problem is that people in Poland live under illusion that Polish higher education is free. It's not free - the tax payers pay for each person who attends college. That leads to ill-considered decissions of candidates (I'm going to college not because I have an idea what I want to do in my life - I'm going to college because I have no idea what I want to do in my life - sadly in many cases this statement is true). No one is sensible of a fact that starting a year on some faculty then changing the faculty (=starting a new course once again) because someone changed his/her mind about what he/she want to do in the life is a huge cost for tax-payers. It's also a huge costs for tax-payers to let in Poland for so many students. Heck, who needs so many students!? It's a harm for the country and also a harm for the students themselves (who waste so many years of their life while they could gain a serious job experience)!

So to sum up Matura Exam is too easy and it's one of the weakest element of Polish education - that's my opinion.


From my experience actually those old-fashioned teachers are the best.
Note that no one can teach anyone thinking. It's a gift. I know smart people and those who aren't and it seems that those smart were born like that.

School is for:
- preparing a pupil to work or higher education level by providing a knowledge from specific subjects
- to teach a person how to learn effectively by execising their memory, descipline and regularity (Polish schools are bad at the last two indeed ;)

I heard that in the UK people also gripe about decline of education... so I guess that the old-fashioned grammar schools were providing better candidates for universities than modern schools which are suppose to teach thinking.

As for the teaching thinking issue, it was just too simple for me :) I was shocked that most questions on my matura exams were so easy to deduce without almost any knowledge... Note that at universities they require some knowledge. It can't be like that a person takes an exam with a little knowledge of a subject and passes it fairly well which makes him accepted for a university course.

I agree tough that lessons of maths in liceum could be teach in a diffrent way... but that's rather a lack of enough lesson hours than an old-fashioned mind-set.

I would like to bring up one more matter. People like to talk about how disrespectful are pupils to their teachers. What about teachers being disrespectful to pupils? If a student approach a teacher seeking a help from a subject, a teacher is saying that he/she has no time for explaining a subject to one single pupil. So that makes Polish pupils doomed to seek private lesson (how do you say korepetycje?) which cause also a inequality (poor kids can't afford to have private lessons, courses etc.)

u won't give up, will u

Cambridge University accept this:

''Polish Matura
Our standard offer requires a certified pass in... ''

i'll go by wot they say, ok

did it not occur to anyone that it's a new word, translation, equivalent, whatever in English.

Some years ago I was helping a high school student who wanted to do English on his matura even though his school didn't offer English. The materials I saw for preparing students were a joke - very unidiomatic and unnatural language based on 'grammar rules' that don't exist (and it didn't allow for American variants when those differ from British norms).

My main educational service at that time was to break the code of the test - that is to figure out what the test takers want and how to give it to them, all without cheating (which the student said helped him more than anything else and not just in English - he, a bright enough kid, had had no idea such a thing was possible).


If you hadn't trashed my comment, an alternative explanation was offered. Go look it up.
just to put things right.
I call the Polish high school leaving exam 'Matura' (I treat it as a proper name, like Kraków or Przemysław). I would also never call it a 'maturity exam' because despite the etymology it's all wrong for modern mainstream English since there is no particular conceptual link between formal education and maturity for Anglophones.

Monia, you don't even know what point you are making. What's your point? That it's 'maturity exam'? A term unbeknown to native speakers! Thank you, Maaarysia :) :) :) Back on track at last :)

OK, let me address your points. A barrier? Yes and no. For example, whilst not being a bad student, I wouldn't say I was a good one in 1995 when I was doing my Revised Highers (and normal Highers too, our equivalent of the Matura, a Polish construct). Whilst the top ones were getting AAAAA or AAAAB (you have 1-5 and 6 in Polish, as you know, of course), I got BBBCCCC. Now, under the gaze of critical eyes, that's bad. However, one year later, I was scoring first (70%+) and upper-second passes (60-69%) in Law and Management (decidedly harder than secondary school level stuff). The first year, in retrospect, was the hardest thematically. I was given a chance to shine and I took it. Please please please, don't make the mistake of shunning pupils too early. I say that as a cautionary tale as you can scar them for life if they don't make the grade (forgive the pun) when they have to. It's damaging and you could produce a generation of self debasers that were crippled by the system being overly strict. That's why some dumbing down is needed. Teachers here go flat out to help them through.

I'm all for access courses to certain courses. My mum had to do one. In Scotland, we have sth that we call Sixth Year Studies (SYS) courses. They can act as an effective substitute and complement the knowledge gained in the 5th year. It is great preparation for university.

The point about it being free? Well, what is the dropout rate in most universities here? If people take it seriously then there is no issue. Many don't have a clear idea, Maaarysia, as their heads have been crammed with all manner of different subjects.

Also, like I said before, it shouldn't be black and white. People change their minds and they are allowed to. Furthermore, in Scotland, new universities like my first one used to be polytechnics. The emphasis is placed on a blend of academic and vocational/generic elements. Work experience is mandatory/compulsory in the third year of many courses. You can also choose your specialisms in the fourth year (which we call the Honours year).

I feel that, with sufficient parental support, tuition and coaching from uni staff, students can thrive and aim to excel throughout their student days. Closing the door early days by making it too hard for them to get there in the first place is counter-productive. As ever, it's a case of balance.

For clarification, it's Matura here, Highers (Revised) in Scotland and A-Levels in England. No need for any wrong translations like mature or maturity exam, thanks. I believe the Irish say 'Leaving Certificate' without translating it into Gaelic ;) ;)

What is important is the standardization.For example in greek national exams 50% of students write below base that is less than 50% correct answers they fail even to catch base.All these get certification that they finished secondary education and are eligible for admission to university in other countries(there are 40000 greek students only in UK).

On the other hand the students who compete for competitive schools(like medicine,engineering etc) have to get over 90% of correct answers to have chances to succeed.So you have a situation where the 50% of examinees completely fails while another 10% gets top grades and competes for admission in very tough competition when a simple mistake on exams can determine everything.

Why does this happen?Simply the tests in Greece are not standardized.(that is why 50% fail).So the middle class has a ready argument for the failure of its offsprings.

1.The educational system has failed when 50% fail to get base in national exams
2.The competition at top is ridiculous.In other countries(Italy etc) admission to the same schools is a lot easier and there are no competitive exams

3.Not only the top of the top have the intellectual capacity to study.In fact almost everyone can study

We see from the above how much power gives the middle class the lack of standardization and how they later use these justifications to jump and annul the system(for example paying proffessors to transfer their offspring from abroad to domestic university,pressing for recognistion of diplomas for which they bribed in eastern Europe,we talk about dozens of thousands of cases).

In fact I do not recognize any attempt to bring social criteria into education.Everyone who wants to apply affirmative actions,social bonuses,press for admissions despite low grades,promote their offsprings despite low capabilities can suck a big pen1s.They can put a dildo in their assses this is their normal position.Beat the sh1tters where you find them.

I still can't see "matura exam" which, you may care to notice, is not the same as "Polish Matura".
I searched their entire site and there not a single occurrence of "matura exam". Not one.

I also looked for "matriculation exam" and I found 3 pages containing the term.
I know you don't like facts a whole lot, but to me facts are the starting point. Sometimes they are also the ending point.


Sadly, this sentence of yours makes no point at all.
"Naive speakers" of what?

It seems to me that you don`t know exactly the rules of Maturity exam in polish educational system . I don`t want to offend you in any way . But do you think that polish system is different from any other county?

Poland is not an island on the sea of illusory teaching . I have been living in Canada for some time , so I can compare these both systems . I can honestly say that polish system is far better than Canadian . In Poland students who want to get a proper education go through public system which is paid or unpaid , depends on how you score in your maturity exams . Try to study law or medicine getting 70 % in your maturity tests , impossible . So try to score 90% in chemistry , physics and biology . Extremely tough to do it in the first attempt . Almost everybody tries few times to be admitted.

There are other educational institutions or some deficit faculties in public system , you can get into with bad scores , but not the ones which can support you in decent living. Who said that it is only school which is responsible for your level of scores . I always thought it was a personal matter of preferences . If you want and work hard you will get where you want . It is a delusion to think differently .

Darius, why are you splitting hairs here? We have moved on.

You are quoting me and saying "naive speakers"??? Native speakers of English. My parents wouldn't know what mature or maturity exam meant. Describe the Matura and give its closest equivalent and they would. Please check the random thread for this discussion.

Southern, Maaarysia and I have given PLENTY food for thought above. Please pick up on that or offer your own experiences. You lived in Poland, right? You went through the Matura?

Monia, what is the maturity exam? This is an English-speaking environment, please keep it that way. Kindly use Matura as that's what it is here, no shoddy translation needed.

But - there's one problem in Poland - in that the Matura has now become a measure of whether you finished school, not whether you're able to go to university. I'm a huge supporter of expanding the Matura so that it offers a wide range of subjects - and the subjects chosen and the grade should determine whether you go to university, not the certificate itself.

For instance - why shouldn't all the vocational school qualifications come under the Matura? Stuff like car repairing would be useless for university entry, but it would also allow employers to see that a minimum level of qualification has been obtained. This current obsession with some sort of post-school education is really, really harmful.

Mind you, I got a shock recently after discovering that to study English, all you need is English and Polish from the Matura - nothing else is taken into account!


Bang on the money. The recent prohibition of allowing free "second faculty" studies was a good move, in my opinion. Changing after the first year - well, okay, I did the same - But after that? No more.


I'm firmly of the opinion that the high numbers of students are for one reason - to cut the unemployment numbers. But you're totally right - the numbers should be cut drastically, along with worthless courses. Albanian philology, for instance? Does Poland really need more than about 10 graduates from that subject a year?


Perhaps not taught, but it can be encouraged. The best example I've ever seen was a very tough exam, set over a 24 hour period - students had to go away and write it. They could collaborate and so on - but the point was that the subject was definitely a difficult one, and it had to be researched and cited thoroughly. There was also nothing to be gained by cheating - because they were questioned about the content after the exam.


The lack of hours is really a travesty - I can only assume that there are powerful forces saying "no" to introducing real full time work for teachers.


Another travesty, too. The languages are set up so that it's virtually impossible to get a high grade without private lessons - and that's really not fair in the slightest. That old excuse about "no time" is also nonsense, especially as the same teachers have enough time to teach privately anyway. And anyway - how on earth can they have no time, when they only work 15 hours a week in school?!

It actually surprises me a lot as to how the system is designed for kids to "sit down, shut up" - it's absolutely crazy that THE PROGRAMME is so overly proscribed that help can't be given to weaker children.


Medicine is open to anyone at a public university in English, as long as you've got the money to pay.

It is exactly the same.Canada uses standardized tests while Poland like Greece uses a simple competitive system where your rank in exams determines everything.Standardized tests and independancy of universities for admission process offers a lot more flexibility.For example Bush got admitted to Yale despite his low scores in SAT exams because his father had studied in the same institution.Bush would probably fail to be admitted in the polish system.The question is would a polish candidate like to have Bush as his co-student(or the equivalent of Bush) or a top notch student from polish village without connections?We see how social pressure determines university priorities and not just academic abilities.

What Poland probably lacks is exactly this taking of social status into consideration.In Greece it is supposed that the better income persons can afford better private tutors to pass exams(and often they have private tuition for 2-3 years) but it does not work like that and the reason is the IQ differences and their role in exam rankings the widespread and cheap relatively private tutoring and the differences between urban and rural areas I will analyze this another time.

In fact private tutoring works like this.A very mediocre student can see a colossal advance but not enough to get competitive grades.A very good student can become excellent and gain access to competitive fields.This is exactly what happens in Greece and middle class has largely understood that private tutoring does not help its offsprings to succeed since everyone does the same.

IME English speakers in Poland say 'Matura' (when speaking to people who know what it is) just the same way that they say "Gazeta Wyborcza" or "Radio Maryja". They're all treated as proper names. If they're talking with someone who wouldn't understand they use something like "Polish A-levels" or "high school graduation exam" or just describe what it is.

"Maturity exam" makes no sense for native speakers of English (a 'maturity exam' would certainly not have much in common with Matura).

Strange.
Are they native speakers of English?
The certainly use the term "maturity exam" in Scotland.
stir.ac.uk/study-in-the-uk/country-specific/switzerland

The same school uses the word "matura" (without "exam") and that, as you say, qould require some explanation. Maturity is an English word, so is exam. Little to explain.

They use the same term in some US universities.