Who is poor in Poland?

In Sweden is even bigger something like 50% of GDP , in Poland it makes more than 3) % , I would say it is 50 % like in Sweden . So GUS stats are unadequate , period. Foreign investors , banks and business people they all know that fact very well and thats why they keep coming to Poland because the market is huge not like that described by GUS data .

We all know the idea of a scheme : basic salary - 1500 zł and under the table salary which can double or triple the first one .

The new moneyed class/middle class is firmly in place in PL, circa 2011. Here is an example in Warsaw within the districts of Warsaw, Zoliborz - old money/Intelligentsia. Mokotow - Gorny/Dolny- New moneyed/yuppies.


There is obviously a disparity between those that have, and those that don't in PL. Anyone suggesting there are no people living in poverty in PL, are deluding themselves. I will agree with you that nepotism, based on family,business and social status is rife in PL.

That doesn't prove anything, we are talking about the country here not only Warsaw,and you know it.

Agreed, we are talking about a country, I gave an example, this example, rings true throughout every main city and town in Poland, there are districts the Intelligentsia and the new moneyed live side by side. These people are Poland's middle class, they are both despised by the lesser offs, as being communist sympathizers or criminals. Ironside, in Poland today you can still come from nothing and rise up the social ladder, easier and quicker than most other European countries. Those short sighted Poles that dwell in the past and blame the communists,Intelligentsia or the Jews for their failings, will always be there. You got to break the mould and get out there and do it, because your kids will not be interested in the stories of commies coming out of every corner, when you can't buy them the latest nike trainers or Ipad.

I-S, are you on commission for being obtuse or something? This phenomenon is NOT isolated to Warsaw, and if you had spent any time here in Poland the last few years you'd know it, too.

Yuppie/middle class areas I'm aware of (it ain't many, but multiply my examples by the number of people scattered through Poland with similar observations to make):

Poznan - Suchy Las, Pruszczykowo, the condos down by the river whose name I forget, help me out here people :)
Gorzow WLKP - (quarter the size and a tenth of the money of Poznan) - Chwalecice, Bodganiec, Klodawa, Baczyna, Santok ... how long have you got?

I don't deny that for all of the above you will find a sink estate where there is grinding poverty (bieda or nedza, you choose - both would apply). For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and all that. But the Polish middle class IS here to stay and it is NOT getting any smaller.

Greetings from Wrocław again, folks!

Grzegorz_, I think Monia has answered your question adequately.

The point I was making I think many times over this thread was: There are poor people in Poland as they are in any other country, because the world is not a paradise. However, Poland does surprisingly well, it is an OK country to live, and the poverty where it exists is hardly screaming.

However, whatever I say, my words are turned upside down by people such as Havok or Ironside. Why?
Havok needs compensation to justify his leaving of Poland in bad times and he needs to picture himself as a man of success ONLY because US had given him such a chance. His need for compensation is so desperate he will say anything, lie about anything, turn upside down anything to prove Poland is a hopeless country, so He Was Right in his decision. What however can we expect from a man who even cannot convert kilometers to miles or who understands a political poster as showing off with the contents of a refrigerator? There are three Polish words, one a three-letter beginning with "m", second five letter starting with "t", and third seven-letter starting with "p" that would describe Havok's education, horizons, and attitude. Let me not use these words.

Ironside seems not to see his chances in Poland of today. His frustration is compensated by looking for a magical formula for his own wellbeing, covered by the care of "peeps". He seems to believe the former commies -- and I would be a commie for him! -- so we are actually talking of Enemies of The Nation (the same the Red Commies were doing) -- should be deprived their property, thrown out of any posts they occupy, and probably the best shot out. For Ironside, Adam Michnik who did his prison sentence for his fight from freedom , Leszek Balcerowicz who made Poland a capitalist country, and I -- only because I do not agree with him -- should be eliminated. The only thing Ironside cannot answer is where the money would come to fill his pockets and make him a successful man -- without hard working.

I think I have written enough in this thread and I have no intention to repeat myself.

Have fun - without me here.

Well, I know that, I just question that those people in new houses are the Polish middle class!
I know that I'm being stubborn sometimes :)


bing - that the point I make!


Who according to you is a middle class because I have in mind independent professionals and merchants, businessmen.Not enough of those I say. I'm not talking about some gypes in state employment.


I would say with little plus good education. I know my friend made it :)
Anyway, I'm not talking about myself , and definitely I'm not talking like that in a real life,just something that worries me as I see that not all goes well in Poland, thanks to those BDs.


Puszczykowo :)

Absolute bull statement. Foreign investors, banks and ......... , Really ?


So what you,re saying is, 1500 zl is declared to the gov. and 3000 zl goes to the black economy. And in your opinion, that,s ok ?

So in answer to Grzegorz, everyone driving big cars and building houses, are doing it from undeclared money. I think you,ll find that most of these people are in positions where they can take advantage of this, I quote " scheme ". So what about the poorer people ?

Yes, they remain poor and enslaved to the fraudulent crooks.


How do you top up your income ?
Let me guess . . . . do you do the final exams for students for a fee ?

All you smart asses who know how to cheat the system are corrupt as one another. That,s my opinion.

You got me:)

I should say nothing but I will answer this insult.
I am a consultant. Not any employee of any University. Yes, I use to give paid training to University Scientific Circles because students want to learn more than the University could teach them and I'm a unique expert in my professional specialty.

Learn Hitman. It always helps: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_engineering

Oh ! Good to have you back. Sorry about the insult, but I thought you left for good, so I was just having fun.


Yes sir, thank you most honourable teacher.


I have your answer sir . . . stick to your specialty.

No, it is not normal , I am not judging anyone, but it is reality here and it will be until Poland changes its ZUS burden imposed on employers and self employed and also when after tax income for an average Pole will be similar to western UE citizen .


I haven`t said that .

Not everybody in Poland makes only 1500 zł per month , there are many people who make 10 000 zł + . Salary at 1500 zł level is given to those poorer Poles you just mentioned .

A persistent source of confusion surrounding the term "middle class" derives predominantly from there being no set criteria for such a definition. From an economic perspective, for example, members of the middle class do not necessarily fall in the middle of a society's income distribution. Instead, middle class salaries tend to be determined by middle class occupations, which in turn are attained by means of middle class values. Thus, individuals who might fall in the middle ground on a societal hierarchy as defined by sociologists do not necessarily fall into a middle ground on an economic hierarchy as defined by economists. As a result, intuitive colloquial and journalistic usage of the term casts a wide net and does not necessarily coincide with an academic sociological or economic definition.

My definition of Poland's middle class would be lower levels of the Intelligentsia and new moneyed. We could also move onto the upper middle class, which is the latest echelon and represents a different level.

Your welcome :)


bye bye !


Exactly !Thats is the problem, no matter former commies or not, dishonest cheaters and selfish-BDs !

There's much more - those houses in Grunwald (especially near Promienista) are very much middle class, as is Lawica. The Polanka estate is very much middle class too (with flat prices going for more than a house in Frankfurt Oder), as is places such as near Morasko. Then there's all the other areas, such as the area near the Nowe Miasto tax office which is full of middle class types.

Isn't Suchy Las one of the richest gminas in Poland?


Problem is, it's pretty obvious that you don't know Poland well. If you did, you'd know that it's often the "poor man" who exploits the system - often claiming benefits while working on the side, for instance. Many of the "poor people" working in jobs such as car park attendants are often long term "disabled".

Or we can talk about those "poor" clerks who work for the bureaucracy. Many of them, especially in smaller towns, are able to exploit the system easily by taking backhanders. Planning officer in a small gmina somewhere Podlaskie? Hah. Or what about all those semi skilled workers? Asking for an invoice is often met with a sneer. I had to get some work done in my office - and it took several phone calls before I found someone able to provide an invoice!

Sorry, but when you want to talk about Polish reality, perhaps you might want to spend some time here before commenting. The Poland you talk about probably never actually existed.

I,m not referring to the legal wage, I was referring to the triple under the table package you mentioned. This is your way of measuring wealth and poverty.


So until Poland changes lets all just jump on the band wagon and become magpies.
No. To change, people must stand up for their rights, not just go along with the flow, because if so, Poland will never change. Don,t let them get away with it. Ask yourself from where did the Polish elite obtain their wealth. Was it from honest hard work or from stolen assets or corruption.

If you realized, how little tax big business paid, you would be out with your placard in front of the government buildings. Josef PL, with his 250 m2 house on the outskirts of the city, driving a second hand BMW, is not big fish now is he?

I,ve been "HERE"over 10 years midden, how long have you been here ?
Seems I have a bit longer insight than you. What ?

And you've never paid for anything in cash before?

Must be some hell of a bubble you live in if you can't see that so-called "poor people" are often the ones milking the system for all it's worth. Tell you what - next time you go to your guarded car park, ask the jolly attendant when his next meeting with ZUS is.

Next time you want to talk about corruption, let's start with the somewhat systematic abuse by many "poor" people in society.

Heck, I can think of one popular tourist attraction in Poland which made the toilets free. Why? Because the workers were stealing money constantly from the people that paid for the toilet - even 25zl a day was adding up to 500zl extra a month, tax free.

Or another example? The amount of technical checks done in Poland on cars are highly suspect in some cases. Do you honestly think that workers aren't pocketing extra cash just to issue a certificate, like was done in many European countries in the past with similar insecure systems?

Or, or, shall we talk about the vast amount of corruption that was taking place on the Eastern border with Customs officers?

I don,t disagree with your statement, but ask yourself why the poorer do it. To make ends meet. Do they have a choice ?
Generally the country is rotten to the core. Corrupt from top to bottom. So where do you start to weed out this corruption. From the small fish, no one would take much notice, You have to make the examples from the hierarchy, the ministers, judges, prosecutors, mayors, police-chiefs etc. The country needs a total overhaul. When the judicial system is corrected and is just, then the small fish will be tackled accordingly. Slowly this would turn the country around and the old ways will be a thing of the past. But do the Poles want this ?


Lets say my relationship with Poland stretches back over 30 years. So I know what I,m talking about. Poles used to have one common enemy. Russia. The people were united to get one over on them in whatever way necessary, by hook or by crook. Once communism fell, the common enemy was gone, so who replaced them ?

Yes, Poles themselves. Everything they learned, the tricks and scams, they started using in their own backyard. They are now their own worse enemy. The mentality has to change for Poland to change. That may take a generation or two. The Poles who travel abroad now will come back in the future with a new mentality and better ideas. I believe it,s already starting.

Antek here we go again, first you try to impress by saying that you have 4 computors, not getting the response you wanted you now tell us you are some big shot in the university, well HULLO any one home. This will not work, just come down to ground level and be like the rest of us, like I mentioned in my previous post the internet, in particular blogs bring out the worse in people, for far too long this forum has been hijacked by people in the real estate profession trying to make a spin on buying properties in Poland, how wrong they have been. After 16 pages of discussion and abuse one is none the wiser for a simple question asked ie Who is poor in Poland...

You have big problems with reading. Consult your optometrist please.


What part of this did you not understand?


No, buddy, I will not work like "rest of us" -- meaning you -- because cleaning restrooms would not let me earn enough to support the whole family for last 20 years, me being the single earner. Neither in Poland nor in Australia.

[quote=Antek_Stalich]No, buddy, I will not work like "rest of us" -- meaning you -- because cleaning restrooms would not let me earn enough to support the whole family for last 20 years, me being the single earner. Neither in Poland nor in Australia.

I don't need to advertise what I have or what I have not, I'm not complaining, all I own has been obtained by honest means, not so for a lot of business people in Poland and has somebody pointed out people receiving pensions and working without paying taxes..

Now what about getting back on the topic....people in Poland seem to be living in debt or rather not able to repay on time !

Why shouldn't I, a Pole living in Poland, be proud that I teach engineers in 16 countries including the whole Scandinavia how to simulate technologies using specialized PC software? Perhaps that sounds wrong for you and you believe it is Poles that always have to be taught? In my opinion, my case is a proof Poland has become a normal country. I didn't need to leave my country to make a professional career. And I'm not a toilet cleaner, mind you ;-)

Your own nickname "wielki pan" means "big shot". Why? How BIG are you, wielki? ;-)))))

Antek said he is NOT an employee or professor within any university, but is a consultant and provided a link as to what type of consultant work he does. It is a specialized career that involved hard work and knowledge. No where was it implied that he is a big shot. Those are your words.

I like and agree with his assessment of there being poor people in Poland, but it is an o.k. place to live. I grew up in a middle class family in the USA and it looks to me as though I could live there comfortably. I could not say the same thing for Mexico. Where ever I went, there were poor children begging. If you gave something to one, the others would flock around much like when you feed one seagull and more and more arrive. I never saw anything like that in Poland.

I have no idea what it is like to have grown up there as I was a child in New York City. However, in my late teens an early twenties I had a best friend who was born and raised in Poland and came to the USA in her late teens.

Her grandmother still lived in Poland (Gdańsk), and she often went back to visit during communist times. I vividly remember her stories about her grandmother waiting on long lines to have some meat and other nice things to offer when her grand daughter visited. I remember how we sent care packages to her former school friends who needed vitamin drops for their children and many other things. I heard about multi-generations sharing homes, the uncertainty of getting new furniture. Empty shops, Coca Cola under the bar for the right price, and how the famous Polish ham was exported and Poles had none.

My first trip to Poland was in 2000 and it was nothing like that and each year that I go, I see more and more improvement. So when Antek says there are poor, but it is an o.k. place to live, I believe him. When I attempted to defend Polish drivers.....he candidly admitted that Polish drivers were not the best. So, I feel he calls it like he sees it and is being as objective as he can be.

It is his opinion and seems valid to me. Everyone else is entitled to their opinions. Life can be hard for any of us anywhere. I really like reading about everyone's experiences and opinions, but I feel bad when someone who brings a lot to the forum is picked apart personally. I respect all those who feel opposite and realize that not everyone has had a bed of roses in Poland. But, it is so much better than it was before and that makes me feel happy.

Underground economy is ~25% of GDP in Poland, the same as in other new EU member states, Greece or Italy, little more than in Spain, in most old EU countries It is ~15%. Do you agree with that or do I have to provide dozens of links... ? If so then the distance between Poland and Italy is the same as in official statistics, between Poland and Germany or UK we are not 10 light years behind, It's "only" 9.5.


Surprisingly well ? I remember you saying how many new cars you see on the streets... actually this is a really good indicator, so here we go: annual new cars sales in Germany: ~3 million, in the UK, France, Italy: 2 million each, in "poor" Spain: 1 million, in little Belgium 550 thousand, in OK country to live ? 320-330 thousand.


Please come back and comment on the car sales statistics. Are all these new SUVs you see unregistered or what ?


No doubt but It's at most 20% of the society and ~80% of that is hardly a lower-middle class. In Poland you can work hard and still be poor, you can be well educated, work hard and still be poor, you can even work hard, be well educated, have a "good" job and still be poor. It definately wouldn't happen in a really developed country. We are in the middle between 3rd world and developed countries.


LOL ! Do you know how much of a typical flat average monthly salary in Poland can buy ? Depends on the area It is 0.2-1 m^2.

And many of those "new" cars end up in Poland and suchlike after a couple of years. In some countries, such as Switzerland - you're looked at oddly if you retain a new car for more than 3 years.

The value of the cars on the road is what you should be looking at, not the amount of new cars.

exactly


This is the main problem in Poland. It is the elephant in the room that people on here, always try to sweep under the carpet...

And I also thought it had to do with the destruction of WWII and the need to build more apartments and houses.

When I went in 2000, my Polish bf and his family would have been multi-generational too. If we would have married, we would have lived there. I think his father made about $500 American dollars a month and his mother was a kindergarten teacher. They were not poor, but always looking for ways to earn more or do better. They had high hopes for their children.

Here in the States, I am multi-generational, too. My older son was doing well, but had an accident and lost his business and ability to walk for several years. He is able to walk now without crutches and a cane, but no longer can do what he once did to support himself. So, he and my two grandchildren live with me. In some ways, it is nice because we are all very close.

It's to do with the government being liars and doing nothing..Donald Duck said he would build more as part of his pre-election manifesto. He then did what all free-market fanatics do,"nothing'.