Poland's expats' colonial mentality?

Not only in Germany.

It really isn't. A hard life is not knowing when you'll get to eat next, or not having adequate clothing or shelter. Poland is - by world standards - an easy life.


What are those ways?


What is this system?

Sure in some slums of Brasilia they have harder lot. However working Poles have the shyte end of the bargain.
Why do you insist to compare oranges and apples?Because you know that I'm right and you are not.

And in most of Africa, and in most of Asia, and in half of Europe, and so on.


Hardly. They have everything they need.


I fail to see how claiming that Poles have a hard life when evidence suggests otherwise makes you "right".

So what? We are talking about Poland. Policy of government is mainly responsible to that sorry state of affairs.
Anyway why do you ******* tell that to people who work hard all their life just to survive on bare minimum. You are a cocky bastard - take away your lingo and what would you do in Poland - beg?


Who the hell are you to tell people whether or not they have all they need.


The other ..... I have been talking to a dude I haven't seen for ten years or more. He has a good job as a driver in a good company Warsaw. He is living alone with his parents, got a car, he cannot afford to fix his car with all that money he gets.

The other one is a self-employed electrician, he goes to fix stuff whereas there is some emergency. He drives his own car. He is on the call all day everyday, after paying all taxes and for petrol (which is bloody expressive)monthly he gets about 800 zl.

His wife have to work too otherwise their family would starve.
That average Poles, not professionals, doctors, lawyers and such.

In Poland, there's everything that people really need. Trying to pretend otherwise is a sign that you really have been away for far too long.


Blame the Government as always.


Bare minimum? By what standards?


No, I'd do something else and not whine about it. I know a Spanish guy here who took some work in a factory - he learnt the language to a reasonable standard within a year and is now a production supervisor - and the factory pays for his Polish lessons now. Anything is possible with effort.


No-one is going to die by not going on a summer camp, not having a nice holiday by the sea or not having a flatscreen TV.


Strange, because good jobs (such as with the various MPK companies) tend to pay very well indeed. The starting salary in Poznan is something like 2200zl net - my car went in for a major service last year, and it cost me a little under 1000zl to have quite a lot of work done, including the replacement of several parts. If he can't afford to fix his car, then perhaps his job isn't anywhere near as good as he says it is.


And how much does he earn do ręki? You're surely not naive enough to believe that a self employed electrician is putting everything through the books, are you? I mean - you've been out of Poland a long time - have you now forgotten that people will add 20% for a faktura here?


Common story in much of Europe. What's new?

Ironside, you're Polish, surely you know that many people pretend to be worse off here than they are, especially working class people?

It is because Ironside says it is.

That's the limit of his debating powers, I'm afraid.

Fortunately, I'd rather take the evidence in my face than someone that's been gone for years.

What is undeniable is that young people that don't want to work and who did badly in school struggle. Can't say I'm crying for them.

Do you want to say something or you are just your usual plonker self?


What evidence? Unemployment in Poland, money people get, prices, the fact that after million left unemployment is huge.
I'm not saying that right now people are dying on the street but that with all that EU money and all circumstances did not really improved much. I would say that during the transformation when all those big firms have been destroyed. with people in new reality it was better than it is now.

It is not about some people who struggle but about the system which is bad and asking for disaster.
You fail to see it - so be it. End of story.

Yes. Simply making statements without supporting evidence makes you a poor debater. Calling someone a 'plonker' is not a trump card. Hope this helps.

I dunno, I went for a walk earlier. I didn't see much evidence of a hard life. Plenty of flat screen TV's on walls, plenty of nice cars around...and I live in the centre, not in some luxurious lovely osiedle with rich people everywhere.


Have you actually been in Poland recently, Ironside? Poland has changed dramatically since 2004 by all accounts - not least with roads.


People then were working for $25 a month and the country was in huge trouble financially. People are much, much better off now - even if you don't want to admit it.


Some parts aren't great, but what other choice is there? I'd destroy ZUS tomorrow and immediately stop paying pensions on the basis of pre-1990 contributions - but that would result in massive social breakdown. Is that what you want?

I live in Poland. Life is hard for working-class people. Very hard compared to the UK.

If you don't know this then you don't really know Poland.

But Poland has far more social mobility than the UK, and many activities such as working on the side attract absolutely no scrutiny unlike in the UK. Swings and roundabouts - a working class person here can work full time, go to university part time (I know several people that did this) to better themselves and leave with no debt, whereas a working class person in the UK would be highly unlikely to be able to do this.

It's worth pointing out that *if* someone has a problem here, such as with alcohol, then the consequences are far more severe than in the UK. It seems to me that the propoganda from society is partially to blame for working class problems, particularly encouraging women to stay at home while the man has to work all the hours to pay for it.

What I do notice about Poland much more than the UK is that many working class women look significantly older than they are. But this is quite understandable - if they've had to work, bring up children and look after the home while the husband works (often no harder than the woman) and then demands to rest, no wonder they look shattered.

Does it? How do you know this? I suspect you know little of Polish society.


I have no idea why you imagine this, Ignorance, perhaps.


Part-time studies in Poland are not free. You don't know what you are talking about.

No? Ha, but you see, I remember the times on this forum when whenever a Pole would write that some comment about Poland or Poles is untrue, that someone is exaggerating or obsessed (about Polish women, for example) he or she would get the "You're being defensive" comment from a foreigner. I really hated that because Seanus was doing this very often and he was a repulsive individual.

It was refreshing for once to use it against one of you :)
I'm just a human :)


Why would you say that?
I'm getting irritated when people repeatedly imply I wrote or think something that I didn't and don't, that's all.


That's a very condescending and untrue thing to say.
As I explained more than once to you, I don't view the world in the way you think I do.
But there are people who do.
There are also people who are xenophobes, racists, etc.
Everybody knows about this. It's common knowledge.
So I really don't understand why you're not aware of sth that many people are aware of.
It's just strange, you know?


Good man, I am not obsessed about it lol It's just an observation that I decided to share on this forum for the first time and only because the topic of this thread led me to do it.

I don't understand why are you being so hostile about this?


I don't know how you came to such conclusion. Why would you understand this in such a way?
I simply wrote that it's silly that foreigners think that "when they make a thread on PF about sth and complain there then it will change sth in Poland".

How a thread on an internet forum that is being read by just a few Poles can change anything in a country of 38 mln people?

And why do you think that Poles don't know about the basic things that have to be imroved in Poland?
Why do you guys think that it takes a foreigner to tell them that?


No, you didn't understand what I meant.
I gave example of Jason's thread for a praticular reason. Here's his thread: https://polishforums.com/life/poland-hey-little-infrastructure-65244/

The thread is about the poor condition of Polish roads. Now, not only that foreigners already complained about Polish roads on PF many, many, many times before, but Poles KNOW very well that Polish roads suck. Every Pole complains about them, it's almost like a proverb.

Of course, Jason is a newbie in Poland so I guess he could be forgiven that for some reason he thinks Poles are blind and can't see Polish roads suck and that they need "a little outside criticism" lol

But what I found particularly funny is that he wrote "and a nudge to get things moving, maybe." lol
Yes, when an American will write what he thinks on an internet forum it will cause for things to get moving xD Bow down nations, the foreigner has spoken! ;D

Sorry for the sarcasm, I'm not angry about it, I just find it really funny xD
The "what can you do" comment was about that. "What can you do about such a silly idea that a thread on an internet forum can be a nudge to get things moving?" Only laugh.


It's not about complaining itself, because Poles complain all the time. It's about how you do it. And why you do it.


Who says about "majority of people"?
I'll give you an example. When some hateful trolls will come here and write that all or majority of Polish women are cheap sluts who will give you a blow job for 5 zł then do you think I should try to get a clearer view of their perspective, give it some thought, y'know decide if there's any merit to the point made, then, objectively reflect on my own habits and decide if i ought to change? lol

Why would I do that if I live in Poland, know more Polish women than any of those trolls will ever know in their sad lives and I know that all or majority of Polish women aren't cheap sluts who will give you a blow job for 5 zł?


I am terribly sorry for my outrageous behaviour. I must admit I find your style of writing/discussing and attitude irritating, but from now on I will try to ignore my personal preferences and the prejudices I'm sure I've acquired because of this splendid forum and show as much patience and understanding as possible and I shall dedicate as much time to explain everything I meant as I manage to.


No, that's not the case. I simply react when some comment is really wide of the mark, when someone thinks sth because someone told him/her sth which is not true, etc.

Recent examples - someone asking in a thread whether it's true it's unusal for Poles to like cats because one person said so. So I reply that it isn't unusal for Poles to like cats.

Some American asked whether Poles in Poland dislike charity because she was told by some people in USA that they dislike it. So I write: "No, it isn't true". Because it isn't.

OK?


At what point it became childish? Could you quote or direct me to the right post?


And what extent do I imagine? I just wrote about "looking down", not about the extent of this looking down.


Oh, it is! Though it is changing from what I see. At least among people on the ground, I think the media and politicians seem to be a bit more obsessed about it still ol

But that doesn't change the fact that it's true about that looking down I wrote about.


But I didn't write anything about being "hostile".
Although it can get hostile. Not only on internet forums.


Where do you come from, if you don't mind me asking?


I can't understand this either. If a Russian or, I don't know, an Ukrainian, would say that some Poles look down on them would that mean that this Russian or Ukrainian has an inferiority complex? Well, he may or may not, we don't know that, but it's a fact that some Poles look down on those nationalities.

Btw, what do you disagree about (I mean in this thread), delph? I'm curious about your feedback.


You know, there is a reason why Poles emigrated to Greece (or any other Western country) and Greeks (and other Westerners) didn't emigrate to Poland lol

So it always makes people curious when someone from the West actually comes to live here, because it's... unusual.
The main reason why foreigners settle in Poland is because they married a Polish woman and she doesn't want to leave her country.
So I really don't know what do you expect from Poles? lol


+1

Poland's standard of living cannot be compared to that of Third World countries of Africa and Asia by any means. However do any of you ever think that there is something morally wrong with people wallowing in luxury, doing the club scene, turning up in pricey designer fashions, boozing up, engaging in one-night stands, freaking out on drugs, etc., etc. in a world half of whose population regularly goes to bed hungry? Do any of you see the unfariness of the situation or have you even given such matters any thought? These people bear no responsbility for where they were born. Do the 'haves' have any moral obligation to share theri abundance with the 'have-nots'? Just curious?

Dont let too many non-ethnic Poles into Poland.
Once the minority gets large/strong enough they will have start imposing their ways onto the country.

Can you imagine if 5 million Brits and 5 million Muslims came to Poland. It would be hell.

Common sense. You won't find many working class people at top universities in the UK. Poland is full of them, as the barriers for entry are significantly lower. Perhaps not in all faculties, but in general, a top university education is available to all in Poland.


Ignorance? Of what? The fact that people will be quick to jump on the phone to report a tax dodger in the UK, but in Poland, doing business that way is considered normal?


They are incredibly cheap by European standards, and many free courses exist - funded by the EU. I work with one girl who studies part time - her course is less than 300zl a month!


Paulina, I never do this, but LOL! I genuinely laughed out loud when I read this :)

I admire the way that the Poles came to the UK, found that it wasn't set up for them and promptly went about opening bakeries/etc. They didn't whine online, they just got on with it.


From what you've written, very very little. Maybe a niggling point or two, but nothing worth even writing about. The rest, I completely agree with.


More and more are turning up - I even encountered one Spanish guy handing out leaflets a while ago. That made me wonder, but then - with Poland's social mobility, he could always find some opportunity in Poland. Spain seems to be absolutely dead in comparison.

For what it's worth, I think many of them are actually causing trouble. I know one Spanish teacher who is exasperated with having to deal with a succession of "natives" turning up - many of whom speak terrible Spanish.

Seems rather socialist of you, Polonius.


Says the immigrant to Canada who spent a significant amount of time on welfare.

Haha, cool xD I usually try to suppress my sarcasm in order to be polite and not offend anyone, but I'm glad it made you laugh ;)

Śmiech to zdrowie :P


I suspect that's because of the economic crisis.

That and girls. They haven't quite figured out yet that no Polish girl worth having will be interested in such a person ;)

But to go back on topic : what is particularly interesting is that some foreigners seem to have a very downtrodden opinion of Poles and how they live. I can't figure it out, but I suspect it is some sort of psychological reinforcement. I've noticed this especially among those who haven't found their place in Poland - they sneer at Poles, yet they themselves are far worse off than the Polish people.

And not guesswork? Presumably, as an 'expat', you hang out with those who speak English and can afford to go to the kind of places foreigners go to. And you are making your foolish pronouncements on your superficial acquaintanceship with such people.


You don't think anyone ever does this in Poland then? Based on what, exactly?


Yes, they are incredibly cheap by Western European standards. This is hardly surprising given that Polish people are incredibly poor by Western European standards.

Delph, a couple of days ago I was introduced to the guy who heads the department that process unemployment claims. In all main cities there is now a foreigners department. The latest rub by foreigners in Warsaw they have seen, is non Poles turning up who have just lost their job in Denmark, UK and Sweden. They claim to be looking for work in Warsaw they are paid unemployment benefits at the same rates as if they where in the UK, Denmark or Sweden for three months. As he mentioned most of these people have families in Poland and are registered outside of Poland, when they have finished their contracts they come to Poland at the expense of the Polish tax payer for a three month vacation. Welcome to the EU, its not just Poles in the UK abusing the system.

Please define the term expat. I personally avoid WTF and other expat places because the conversation there is very shallow.

Oh dear. I know you've got a reputation for making absurd statements on here, but this makes me laugh.

No, I don't hang out in 'expat' places. I know some, sure - but my friends are mostly Poles. I work with mostly non-English speaking Poles (I did a count a while ago - the company I work for has perhaps 6 English speakers and around 40 monolingual Polish speakers), so I don't spend my life in any sort of bubble. I live in a pretty ordinary flat among pretty ordinary people - really, I couldn't be further from the whole 'expat' scene if I tried. And yes, I speak Polish well enough to know them.

I think you're yet another one that makes the mistake of taking Polish people at face value. Trying to make out that they're all "incredibly poor" is quite, quite wildly off the mark.

No-one is saying that they're wealthy, but they certainly aren't poor by world standards.


Oh dear. You've been in Poland since 1997 and you still don't know about the prevailing attitude here to such a thing? It is changing slowly, but in general, it's seen as a no-no to do such a thing.

Tell you what though, do a test. Do an exercise with their students, and ask them about a variety of scenarios in which someone is doing something bad that doesn't affect them directly - for instance, tax dodging, speeding (in a place safe to do so) and other victimless crimes. Ask them if they would report such a person. You'll almost certainly find that their attitude is completely different to ours.

Why do you think the new rules about segregating rubbish relies on neighbours to influence neighbours and not the authorities? It's the only way that it can work.


See, you're yet again displaying complete arrogance towards Polish people. They aren't incredibly poor compared to Western European standards, because for a start, many working class people actually own the properties they live in. Get your head out of your arse and stop being so bloody condescending towards them.

Actually I do agree with you.


Is that even legal? How come?

EU law - you can continue to receive your unemployment benefits in other EU countries for up to 3 months, paid at the same rate as back home. Don't worry - the cost to Poland is nil - they will claim all the costs back from the country that they came from.


That isn't Poland paying, the bill gets sent back to the country that they come from - as far as I know?

Must admit, I'm very, very, very firmly against any benefits being paid cross-border. The EU really has made a total balls up in this respect.


expat ; see also : ifor bach.

EU rules unemployed have a right to search for work.
I have got to say I was quite shocked when the chap explained he had a Danish guy who is married to a Pole, he works on a ship in the Baltic and every 8 or 9 months he turns up in Warsaw to claim his unemployment benefit of between 5-6 000 PLN per month for three months, after three months he goes back to the ship for a further contract. He is registered in Denamrk. his employer is Swedish and he looks for work in Warsaw.


It is state sponsored tourism., whoever picks up the bill.

Yep, all entirely legal. No wonder Denmark has such high taxes!

And presumably your Polish is good enough for you to understand well what the non-English speakers tell you?


I don't listen to what people say, but rather observe what people do. A lot of Polish people emigrate abroad for mundane and commonsensical reasons. (It's very difficult to have enough money to raise a family here). Of course, not all people are 'incredibly poor'. In fact, most of the people I know personally are well off. But I don't take these people to be the 'norm'.


No, Polish people aren't poor by world standards. They are by Western European standards. Very poor. This is not putting people down but stating a simple and obvious truth. The minimum wage in the UK is about five times that in Poland. Deductions for social insurance are far higher in Poland then the UK. There is no child allowance in Poland.

Poland, by Western European standards, is not an easy place for 'ordinary' people to live.

If you don't know that, then I'm afraid you don't know Poland.

Of course, I know what 'kombinować' means. Do you?


I suspect that my knowledge of such issues is deeper than yours. It does not come from reading students essays, but rather from real-life experience. All countries have a 'black economy' to a greater or lesser extent, including the UK.

I know about illegal and semi-legal ways of employing people here. I also know people who have lost their businesses for doing so, and I personally know of people reported to the authorities for doing this.

Rules and regulations are tougher in Poland than in the UK, and are enforced in a far more arbitrary manner.


I'm just stating facts. You are being arrogant for writing about a country you appear to know practically nothing about. Your comment about working-class people owning the properties they live in is absurd. Where I live (Szczecin) 90% of the housing is owned by the city. The owner-occupier rate for the UK is around 70%.

Now, please remove take your own advice about removing your head from your posterior.

Ifor bach is right, delph. That's why people emigrate.